Messerschmitt Me 264 and Heinkel He 277.

[Glider]

Its also fair to point out that the forces available for defending the UK were far stronger than in the BOB whilst the bombers (with the exception of the Do217) were very similar to those of the BOB being based on the He111 and the Ju88.
The Hurricane had was inferior to the 109E, had been replaced by the Spitfire which was a good match for the 109, plus of course the increased number of fighters available to the RAF resulted in a much stronger fighter defence.

[Juha]

Kurfürst
one Gruppe of KG 2 began operations with Do 217Es in July 41, later that year stab and another Gruppe arrived. After that to mid 1944 there were IIRC at least Stab and two Gruppen ready in action in West. Later KG 2 got Do 217Ks and Ms. And as KG specified it was a bomber unit and yes it also flew anti-shipping operations. But LW had in West available a new day bomber from July 41 onwards.

At least KG 55 flew now and then night attacks against Soviet munitions factories.

Kurfürst and Glider
I didn’t mean a new BoB but random attacks on specific targets near coast or at coast from unexpected directions. British may well have got wind of those plans through Ultra but German planning staff didn’t know that or even suspected that. If Bf 109Fs/Gs and FW 190As had the capability to escort bombers distances Kurfürst claimed that might have looked a good idea for LW planners to keep part of Spitfires away from South England and so away from attacking targets in Northern France. Even a couple of attacks say with a Gruppe of Do 217s and two-three Gruppen of fighters might well have been enough from that purpose.

[Glider]

Its an idea certainly and they may have got away with it once but not twice.

[Kurfürst]

I think the LW was rather busy supporting 3 million German troops instead of splitting it's forces to do harassing raids on the British. What would these raids achieve, anyway? The situation would be all the same. From the German POV, Britain was neutralized as a threat (=it could hope to land in France or bomb Germany in the daylight with success), at least for the time being.

And I don't make 'claims', the ranges of the Bf 109F/G/K and the FW 190A are clearly stated in their range tables. Those has been posted some time ago in this board. It might be interesting to calculate an 'escort' range, but it depends on the mission profile and engine regimes.

Perhaps such 'standards' are available for say, Mustangs, to get a comparable data...?

[Juha]

Quote: "I think the LW was rather busy supporting 3 million German troops instead of splitting it's forces to do harassing raids on the British. What would these raids achieve, anyway? "

Nobody was talking on splitting LW forces, KG 2 was in West all the time! Idea was what LW could do to split FC assests. And anyway KG 2 sent single Do 217s on daylight "cloud cover" harasing missions over England. I thing they were rather useless in military terms put probably flyed to keep British on their toes. Now a daylight attack on Gruppe strenght against for ex. Hull would probably rose a public outcry in GB and awoke demands to fighter protection to all areas under potential threat at scale capable to prevent accurate bombing. And of course it would have been excellent propaganda victory and a boost to German morale.

Juha

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Juha

Quote: "I think the LW was rather busy supporting 3 million German troops instead of splitting it's forces to do harassing raids on the British. What would these raids achieve, anyway? "

Nobody was talking on splitting LW forces, KG 2 was in West all the time! Idea was what LW could do to split FC assests. And anyway KG 2 sent single Do 217s on daylight "cloud cover" harasing missions over England. I thing they were rather useless in military terms put probably flyed to keep British on their toes. Now a daylight attack on Gruppe strenght against for ex. Hull would probably rose a public outcry in GB and awoke demands to fighter protection to all areas under potential threat at scale capable to prevent accurate bombing. And of course it would have been excellent propaganda victory and a boost to German morale.

Juha

Its probably more likely to be a disaster with heavy losses and be a morale boost to the British public.

[Juha]

Maybe, if FC would have got a fore warning by SIGINT but that was something that LW planning staffs were not counting on. In 1942 LW knew as RAF that best way to surprise attack was low level approach and last minute climb to bombing altitude. I’m not sure how well FC was prepared to defer well escorted bigger bomber formation outside South England, at least they were used to fight against single nuisance bombers or small unescorted bomber formations on anti-shipping missions.
Surprise or sneak attack is what I’m thinking of and a one how a LW planning staff would have seen the possibilities not the real life situation with Ultra and so on. Hitler/LW was hoping for some sort propaganda stunt IMHO that was the main reason behind for ex. Ju 86 high altitude bombing raids, military significance of those flights with one 250kg bombload wasn’t very big.

[Kurfürst]

Propaganda stunts could be done much safer, and cheaper by Jabo raids, in fact that's what they did. Anyway, we're sailing to rather off topic waters.

[Juha]

Yes, but sailing is fun. Anyway, You might not see it but I’m rather sure that Herr Hitler, whose thinking seemed to be rather revenge oriented, would have liked some more spectacular response than some small-scale fighter bomber attacks to for ex first USAAF heavy bomber attacks. And if successful its propaganda value would have been in different magnitude and it would have given Goebbels’ machine extra boost for weeks.
But my main point is that neither I nor You can remember any use of the long range escort capacity of German single-engine fighters that you claim they had. Not even over Mediterranean or over Barents Sea where unescorted LW torpedobombers were time to time badly mauled by fighter escorts of convoys.