Mission to Moscow-hypothetics

drgondog · 08-20-2007, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timshatz

Delc, Think the weather question could be solved by having a Mosquito Weather Squadron doing Weather Recon over the SU from about the begining of June onwards.

As for flight plan info, here is a link to the site. You can tinker around with it to get the best plan. I tried an egress through the Balkans and it came up an hour longer. So I dumped it. But it is good for getting an idea.

route planner

The VVS did have High Alititude fighters but I do not know about Night Fighters. The Mig 3 was a high altitude fighter from the begining of the war and the US sent Lend Lease P47s over that were used to guard cities in High Altitude profiles. Now that would be something, having the B29 attacked by P47s. There is definitely more to this but the SU and the Russian Federation are pretty close lipped about what went on during the war (beyond the standard Mother Russia Propoganda). On top of that, there is a language barrier.

Most of the Russian info is going to be tough to get.

As for Fighter Escort, I think a P51 could probably make it to Eastern Polish Border from Western France. Maybe further if they left from Northern Italy. But for the last couple hundred miles, this thing is on it's own.

Have you considered bombing at night? Or in twilight or just after sunrise. Of all the options, I think right after sunrise is the best.

My father led the last Shuttle Mission Escort on 18-22 September and landed at Piryatin with enough fuel to fly over to Poltava to meet with the Mission Bomber Commander. He said he had about a half hour left but guys flying wing would have had less. On a radius that would be about 100 mi short of Moscow but the vector from Stettin over Warsaw to Piryatin consumed a little range (plus the fight over Warsaw).

They left from Steeple Morden above London and flew Baltic Sea Route to Stettin where the 4th and 361st met them and returned home.

The 4th and 352nd and 357th and other groups preceeded the 355th on the earlier Frantic Missions so it wasn't unique, but the 355th flew an earlier mission to east of Posnan Poland, picking up ther bombers near Brunswick (a lot of 'essing' from there past Posna) for a 1490 mile escort mission round trip.

The P-38L probably could have done that mission all the way. If you assumed West Germany is safe landing, then it's a nobrainer -

timshatz · 08-20-2007, 10:01 AM

Man, imagine sitting on your butt for 8-10 hours, strapped into a vibrating fighter in -30F temperature, non-pressurized cockpit with the sun glaring in on you. You're feet are freezing while you're getting sunstroke.

Whatever those guys got paid, they earned their money.

HoHun · 08-20-2007, 04:55 PM

Hi Tim,

>Hohun, why all the course changes on the way out? Are you avoiding concentrations? Just curious.

Yes, sort of - it's to ensure that much of the route is flown overwater.

Additionally, I had unexpected strong southerly winds over the North Sea, so I had to correct to make it to Kiel NDB. I promptly overcompensated over the Baltic, but noticed it while I was still received Kiel NDB. Unfortunately, X-Plane has no ground-mapping radar, so I couldn't really re-create the historical navigation method which would have been used over Soviet territory. I used NDBs in the proximity of Moscow, but I imagine the hunt for radar-recognizable landmarks would have required similar zig-zagging

You can see the different phases of the flight quite nicely on the power chart:

- a short period of take-off power to get airborne and clean up the plane,
- a 40-min climb to 25000 ft (actually to 26000 ft, then re-descend to "get on the step"),
- the cruise out to Latvia,
- another climb to 30000 ft (actually, 31000 ft, then back down),
- the cruise to the vicinity of Moscow,
- the run-in at increased speed,
- A 5-min burst of emergency power to get away from the blast,
- the egress at increased speed to the 1-hour-limit,
- the cruise out to Latvia,
- the power fluctuation from the failing #1 engine :-/,
- my attempt to get the planned cruise speed from three engines,
- the cruise back on three engines at reduced cruise speed to avoid overheating.

This was the first time I logged data from a simulator flight in such a way, and I like the results quite well. I could kick myself for not logging true air speed, since this would have been great to validate the B-29 modelling, and also to get air mileage in the various cruise conditions

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

drgondog · 08-20-2007, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timshatz

Man, imagine sitting on your butt for 8-10 hours, strapped into a vibrating fighter in -30F temperature, non-pressurized cockpit with the sun glaring in on you. You're feet are freezing while you're getting sunstroke.

Whatever those guys got paid, they earned their money.

His logbook had 7:50 plus 15min to go to Poltava for the meeting, and re-fuel and come back to Piryatin for 8:20 for the day. This was his longest mission but the guys (like Fortier and Brown) that went to Posnan/east on 13 May had 8+ hour rides and that included several fights.

The next Shuttle leg was to bomb Szolnok (Hungary) M/Y in front of Russian advance, then on to Foggia - only 5:30 for the 19th, then 7:15 from Foggia to Steeple Morden on the 22nd. All of the first 7 or eight of the 14 Mustang Squadrons flew the Shuttle Missions.

The P-38J/L was certainly capable but last were phased out in July-Sept timeframe.

Had there been a 'Moscow Mission' in say, late 1944, the P-38 was only fighter capable of going full distance from UK, with loiter, to Moscow and still would require excellent prop/throttle management coupled with keeping close eye on engine temps..

drgondog · 08-20-2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cub Driver

It wasn't hypothetical. During the Berlin crisis of the late 1940s, Truman sent B-29s to England to impress the Russians with the risks they were running by blockading Berlin. As it happens, they weren't Silverplate models, and the U.S. probably had no deployable atomic bombs at the time, but the bluff was there.

What good is a bluff if it can't be carried out?

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Theoretically the US got the third in middle August after surrender, three more in September and three more in October. They were all contemplated for use before Truman would authorize and Invasion of japan in Fall 1945

There were a 'lot' available in 1949 and the use of nucs was contemplated for the Chinese but kept in reserve out of fear that N Korea escalation was a planned feint and USSR waiting for a European strike.

drgondog · 08-20-2007, 07:14 PM

Unless someone demonstrated good night fighter capability and radar net for Northwest Latvia and USSR up to St Petersburg I suspect I would plan a two B-29 Mission.

The first would be high altitude 200-300 plus strike escorted by Mosquito Night Fighters from say 100 miles west of Latvia to target and return, with the nuc armed B-29 in the middle of the pack. The range is slightly suspect and would be tempted to strip most defensive armament and leave defense to Mossies.

The second one (totally stripped, unescorted, except for tail guns..just like Tokyo raiders..) would stay over Baltic, low, and its IP would be St Petersburg and timed for run in at time the first strike was due over target. It would loiter offshore until it got target flash. If the first one didn't get through it would head in at low altitude.

The Mossies would have both command frequencies to relay if necessary - and would also have a couple assigned to weather/route recon like the Scouts.

The Fat Boy weighed 10,ooo pounds, about the same or a little over the typical bomb load for the March 1945 B-29 low level night missions

If it's one a/c only, I go with first plannned strike. NFW that USSR could carve much out of that kind of formation at 30,000 at night. Henning has good handle on the parameters and Syscom raised good point about high level considerations - particularly stress on engines which was still bane of high altitude B-29 profile.

It's easy to optimize specific fuel consumption to maximize range when you have EGT/CHT sensors but the B-29 Engineer had a good handle on mixture, prop pitch and cylinder head temps - almost as good.

Soundbreaker Welch? · 08-20-2007, 10:05 PM

Would flying to a major city in Russia cause as many or more casualties as going to Berlin?

Parmigiano · 08-21-2007, 05:52 AM

Why start the mission from England? By Aug 45 a runway could have been prepared in France or Allied occupied Germany, saving several hundred miles.

Njaco · 08-21-2007, 07:45 AM

I'm not as technical as a few here and after reading the last few posts, I get the idea that the problem is distance.

Given the time frame and the situation, I've thought about something that might work.

Does it have to be a B-29? Could a Mistel be used? I'm not sure about payloads but distance probably wouldn't be a problem - the Luftwaffe had just such a plan in place, "Eisenhammer". They kept losing airfields until it was too far.

Just a thought.

HoHun · 08-21-2007, 02:38 PM

Hi Njaco,

>I'm not as technical as a few here and after reading the last few posts, I get the idea that the problem is distance.

Not at all, the B-29 has plenty of range. Moscow and back is quite easily within its capabilities.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)