Moral objections on warfare.

trackend · 03-18-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

Michael,

I notice that you said,"The stuff that GT mentioned is as bad as what happened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."

Huh? Exactly what "stuff" are you referring to?

I believe David, Michael is referring to the images/allegations shown on ABC, 60 minutes and the Washington post.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-18-2005, 06:03 PM

Here is the thing: No matter which side did it and all sides did it, it is a dishonorable thing to do. You dishonor yourself and your country and whole liniage of aviators. Also the civilians that did it were wrong and should be punished for it. Unfortanatly it happens. In the US us aviators are given what we call blood chits. It has a big American flag on it and has all the languages of the region we are flying in on it. The sayings basically say "I am an American, I mean you know harm, please take me to the nearest US soldiers and you will recieve a reward." Pretty much though what it says is please kill me. We always knew that if we went down over Baghdad or some place like it, it was over. Run for your life or fight to the death because it is better then what an angry mob is going to do to you (Remember Somalia).
At the same time it is a little understandable for the civilians. Dont take me wrong I think it is wrong but look at from this point. You are a civilian who works in a bakery and all you want to do every day is sell bread to people. You are not fighting the war and just living your life in a country that is fighting in the war. Everynight your city is bombed to a fiery hell and other civilians are dying. You certainly will begin to feel hatred toward these bomber crews. One day an enemy pilot is shot down and you see him. You most likely will want to kill the man for what he has done to you (he may not have taken part in the bombing of your city, however he is a pilot and you assosiate all pilots with the bombers). Ofcourse that is if you do not run like hell because you are scared and he most likely has a Colt .45. Please dont take me wrong I think it is a terrible thing to do, but I can sort of understand what these civilians were thinking when they did these things.
As for Abu Ghraib, and this is also coming from an Iraq Vet here. Yes treating prisoners is a bad thing, I do not agree with treating prisoners in such a way because in my opionion it tarnishes the good things that my army does. When I first heard about what happened it really pissed me off, however after serving in Iraq for a year I have seriously changed my mind after seeing and fighting these people. If I had been shot down and captured I would have certainly been tortured and my head cut off on TV for the world and my family to see. The Iraqi prisoners were humiliated and made fun of. Were they killed, were they harmed in anyway, not really. And if they had, I too am no longer worried. Ask the families of the reporters and other civilian aid workers who were tortured and had there heads cut off what they think about it. These same people who were humiliated like this, may have done worse to Non Muslims (And notise I said non muslims, these people would kill anyone who is not of there faith because they are the unholy and no I am not talking about all muslims but the fanatical ones like the ones that I was fighting in Iraq). Anyway that is my piece on that topic.

DAVIDICUS · 03-18-2005, 06:22 PM

trackend,

I understand his point but disagree that it was "... as bad as what happened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."

Frankly, understand that the Brits quite enjoyed wearing women's panties on their heads.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-18-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

trackend,

I understand his point but disagree that ir was "... as bad as what happened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."

Frankly, understand that the Brits quite enjoyed wearing women's panties on their heads.

So you think that Abu Ghraib was worse then killing downed pilots or pilots in there parachutes? Abu Ghraib was blown more out of proportion than it really was. Most of the Prisoners there are treated better then prisoners there were treated when Saddam was in power, trust me I have been to the prison and seen with my own eyes. They actually have running water now.

trackend · 03-18-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

trackend,

I understand his point but disagree that ir was "... as bad as what happened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."

Frankly, understand that the Brits quite enjoyed wearing women's panties on their heads.

I agree but I do not understand your final comment could you please explain

BombTaxi · 03-18-2005, 07:22 PM

If I could just throw my 0.02 in...

ANYONE treating prisoners badly is doing wrong. If it's Germany, Russia, Abu Ghraib or Camp Breadbasket, those men who refuse to show proper respect for the rules of war bring shame on themselves and thier country. I was

ed to see the reports of maltreatment at Breadbasket. Are we really surprised the Iraqis dont want us there when we treat them like that?

While I realise that civilians arent constrained by the same regulations as combatants, I find the treatment of Aliied pilots shot downover Germany abhorrent. I am not denying that Germans were treated badly by the Bristish; but I do hold by the point made earlier that the victims of the Blitz didnt feel the need to beat downed Germans to death quite so often as the Germans killed downed Allied personnel. In either case, I think it is a sad comment on humanity that we can do things that make us hate each other that much.

Anyways, I will step off my soapbox now

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-18-2005, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BombTaxi

If I could just throw my 0.02 in...

ANYONE treating prisoners badly is doing wrong. If it's Germany, Russia, Abu Ghraib or Camp Breadbasket, those men who refuse to show proper respect for the rules of war bring shame on themselves and thier country. I was

ed to see the reports of maltreatment at Breadbasket. Are we really surprised the Iraqis dont want us there when we treat them like that?

While I realise that civilians arent constrained by the same regulations as combatants, I find the treatment of Aliied pilots shot downover Germany abhorrent. I am not denying that Germans were treated badly by the Bristish; but I do hold by the point made earlier that the victims of the Blitz didnt feel the need to beat downed Germans to death quite so often as the Germans killed downed Allied personnel. In either case, I think it is a sad comment on humanity that we can do things that make us hate each other that much.

Anyways, I will step off my soapbox now

I think you took me wrong with what I said about Abu Ghraib. I did not condone what they did, but I do not condemn them. Have you ever had to deal with people that will torture and cut your head off if they capture you just because you are the enemy or colaborating with the enemy? Its not a good feeling my friend. All I am saying is that the way the Iraqi's were treated is far less then the way the soldiers would have treated by them had they been captured even if the whole Abu Graib thing had not happened. Do you remember the Philipean citizen who had his head cut off. I had to fly out to the river they found him in and pick him up. It was not a pretty sight. What did he lose his head for, you tell me. If I had been him I would have rather been humiliated. Humiliation and torture are not the same thing.

I too do not agree with prisoner abuse though. Please do not take me wrong with what I just wrote above.

I am not trying to lessen what happened. It is a terrible thing when civilian kill down aviators. It is a shame and very dishonorable. I am also not trying to down play what happened to the allied aviators but I think that the killing of down aviators by German civilians is a lot less then you believe and are trying to make it out to be BombTaxi. It happened on all sides and it is terrible no matter what side it happened on.

BombTaxi · 03-18-2005, 07:43 PM

I think we are more in agreement than we realise Adler. I understand you were not condoning what happened in Iraq. I also realise that both sides commited crimes against each other. All I was trying to get across (and looking back at that post, I realise I made a bad job of it) was that whoever is responsivle, all such incidents are abhorrent and a part of the human nature we would be better without.

Sorry again for the miswording of that last post!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-18-2005, 07:58 PM

No worries man. I completely agree with what you just said.

DAVIDICUS · 03-18-2005, 08:14 PM

DerAdlerIstGelandet,

What do you mean by addressing my comment with "So you think that Abu Ghraib was worse then killing downed pilots or pilots in there parachutes?" I think you should go back and re-read this thread.

I never said that I thought that Abu Ghraib was worse then killing downed pilots or pilots in their parachutes. I was taking issue with MichaelHenley's comment that "The stuff that GT mentioned is as bad as what happenened ad Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."

trackend then tried to explain what MichaelHenley said by saying "I believe David, Michael is referring to the images/allegations shown on ABC, 60 minutes and the Washington post."

I then responded that I understand perfectly well what he meant but disagreed with his assertion and threw in a joke about one of the "abuses" at Abu Ghraib which was making the Iraqi's wear women's panties on their head.

DAVIDICUS · 03-18-2005, 08:23 PM

trackend,

My point in posting that about women's panties was that making ther Iraqi's wear women's panties on their heads was one of the widely cited "abuses."

If Abu Ghraib was akin to GT's account of immoral behavior during WWII, then the Brits must have been forced to wear women's panties on their head. I just joked that the Brits would have liked that sort of thing.

trackend · 03-19-2005, 01:49 AM

Got you. sorry Dave for being a bit slow on the up take

I still am in agreement with you although the abuses by war standards are minor i think it was more about making the forces look undisciplined in the eyes of the world . Although unfair any thing nowadays such as camp bread basket etc is jumped on by the media and every squaddie gets tarred with the same brush which is very unfair on account of some stupid antics carried out by a handful of poorly disciplined personnel
Some of the old times that I remember would have gone ballistic if the regiment had been tarnished in anyway.
I also agree with your views regarding the different cultures eg if an Iraqi had a picture of me he could slap it with the sole of his sandal till his arm fell (come to think of it I may give him a hand I take a lousy photo ) but I couldn't give a toss. but do it to him and Oh dear what an insult. This does not mean I condone prisoner or civilian mistreatment as it shows a lack of moral fibre and it is correct that the perpetrators are bought to book.
I can also see Adler's point of view and it cannot not be easy to switch from nice guy to fighter like a light switch when confronted with a no holds barred enemy on one hand and ordinary civvys on the other trying to maintain your composure in fact I would say is the hardest discipline of all.
I just hope the press gives as much coverage to Private Johnson Beharry winning the VC as it has done to knocking the forces as this shows that there are plenty of guys from all nations out there doing a first class bit of soldiering. lets hope they tar all the troops/marines ect with this brush.
In generally on this subject most of us (it seems) are in agreement but for my part I am not the greatest at putting pen to paper and explaining my views clearly so if I have caused any offense to anyone I apologize. It's me age you know senile dementia etc

"wheres my Zimmer?" "Oi Dolly break out the commode we have lift off"

DAVIDICUS · 03-19-2005, 03:00 AM

I'm not aware of the story of Private Johnson Beharry.

Perhaps you could summarize what he did. A good soldier is a measure of what it means to be a man.

GT · 03-19-2005, 03:04 AM

Killing downed pilots or pilots in their parachutes is understandable, but wrong

For example when Sinner was downed he had shot down a P-51D and the US pilots was revenging that in anger and an adrenalin rush.

The civilians killing Brown and Reghetti in both cases the pilots had been strafing and the revenge came probably because of the losses sustained.

To show you all the horrors of strafing I will quote Zempke when he became POW and the train he traveled in were strafed by 2 flights of red-nosed P-47s not the 56th but probably from 1st TAF.

Here´s what he said when he was at the receiving end of a strafing attack:

- Before my eyes splintered holes appeared in the wood panel opposite with a deafening whip-like crack. The little girl who had been beside me fell across my extended legs, the top of her head a bloody pulp. One of the soldiers opposite pitched forward, a bullet through his middle. People screamed and struggled to escape as, with a violent jolt, the train came to a halt.

(All got out) and Zempke then says:

The roar of aircraft's, burst of machine-gun fire and exploding bombs filled my ears, a fighter-bomber attack. The distraught mother of the two girls was up there crouching beside the train, pleading for someone to save her two children. Seeing another p-47was about to make an approach. I rushed up the embankment and grasping the woman by the arms unceremoniously dragged her down to the safety of the rocks. Sprinting back, the terrified younger sister was retrieved just before the next fusillade of bullets smashed into the train and ricocheted over the rocks.

The hysterical woman kept crying out for her older daughter and attempting to get up. Pulling her down I said firmly, `Mother, your daughter is dead. For your own safety lie still. Such was her state of mind she still tried to go back to the train and I had to lie on her to keep her down when the next aircraft began its firing run. While other passengers tried to console the woman, more dashes were made back to the wrecked cars to help extract wounded or those too petrified to move. Having used up their ammunition and bombs or decided that this train was sufficiently wrecked, the Thunderbolts section finally departed from the scene.

People began to emerge from hiding places and soldiers attended to the wounded and dying in the shattered rail cars. Both my guards had disappeared and were not among the casualties in my proximity. Now, as I stood beside the train, I was conscious of a change of attitude among the passengers, their fear and panic gave way to anger and hatred. As the perpetrators of the dead were flown away their attention focused on the ”Terror Flieger” in their midst with ”Kriegsgefangener” emblazoned on his jacket. Threats were made and I saw two men pick up stones. Soon a small crowd of cursing and gesticulating civilians surrounded me. One man had a length of splintered wood and from what he said he was just about to use it. Realising the gravity of my situation my mind sought desperately for the best move to make. Suffice to say there were few options. To cringe before an unruly mob would probably unleash the impending violence. Faced with a steep cliff on one side and a battered train and river on the other, the only outlet to escape remained up or down the railway track. To many passengers stood along the track for me to attempt to run, and if I did, some aggrieved soldier would probably shoot me on the pretext of my trying to escape. Stymied, I waited for the first blow, not frightened but outraged that I was to finish as a lynching victim after all my other close brushes with extinction.

At that precise moment a tall German Wehrmacht Leutnant appeared from behind the crowd, drew his pistol and with a sharp command addressed my oppressors; ” Anyone harming this prisoner of war will be shot”. The directing a few soldiers who had been onlookers to surround me for protection, the Leutnant said I was to follow him up the track. .........

When you look at gun camera film of strafing trains think about this and for example the strafing of barges were the common thing is that the family owned the barge and lived on them. When the hail of bullet hits the barge can you imagine the scene inside?

War is hell but sometimes people makes it so much worse.

Regards

Soren · 03-19-2005, 03:31 AM

Still it should be remembered that good deeds 'did' happen in war.

I remember an incident where a Spitfire pilot was shot down by a German 109 pilot, and after seeing the British pilot bail out safely, the German pilot drove out to get him after he had landed. When he found the British pilot, he toulk him to the nearby German airbase, and they celebrated "The German pilots KILL"

toghether. (These things actually happened quite often in "WW1", but not so often in WW2)

True aerial chivalry if you ask me.