Mosquito versus the German fighters

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

I must also question this statement. Looking at the stats for 2 Group in 1944 the stats are
Mossies (Day) 1732 sorties, 1320 successful, 17 lost to flak, 1 to fighters, unknown 11. total loss ratio 2.2 percent.
Mossies (Night) 9899 sorties, 8877 successful, 4 lost to flak, 0 to fighters, unknown 73. total loss ratio 0.9 percent

Note. I did the loss ratio on successful missions, not missions flown the normal method.

Source for the figures...?

So whilst they did have fewer losses at night I don't think a loss ratio of 2.2% is high and definately not twice the loss ratio of others bombers.

I think you've missed the part in my post which says 'when introduced'. You quoted loss figures for 1944. I am quite sure the Mosquito was introduced into combat much earlier.

Anyway, if you want to boast about loss rate figures, there are plenty of aircraft enjoying similiar or better loss rates as the Mosquitos at night, take a look at here and scroll down. http://les_butler.drivehq.com/jg26/thtrloss.gif

That's a 0.53 % loss rate on daylight sorties the East in 1944, 'twice as good' as the Mossie during the night over the Reich, but I very much doubt that's because Stukas and Heinkel's kept outrunning Soviet fighters in 1944, or were covered to teeth by cemented Krupp armor..

Maybe this should be reworded
'the truth is the Bf 109G-6/AS and later G-14/AS could take on the mossies of the LSNF and shoot them down as well as Mossie fighters, but didn't'

The real question is, why didn't they?

A game with words, now that proves a lot... here's my version

'The truth is the Bf 109G-6/AS and later G-14/AS could take on the mossies of the LSNF and shoot them down as well as Mossie fighters, but there are some on this board who just can't bear the idea of his favourite nuisance bomber could be and have been shot down like any other bomber'

Second thing I don't quite get is what the importance of the night sorties thing. Night mosquitos were introduced after Bomber Command realized Berlin is just a too tough, and largely for propaganda reasons, they've created the light nightly strike force of mosquitos in 1944 that performed militarily insignificant, politically motivated nuisance raids on Berlin, the only questionable gain being enjoyed by the British propaganda ministry. They could have a headline that they've 'bombed' Berlin this night, again. Even if in reality it meant single aircraft dropping single high capacity bombs from high speed and high altitude without the slightest chance of hitting any specific target.

Waste of resources if you ask me, and the sensible German LW commanders must have thought the same, there were never any significant resource spent of combatting non-significant threats like the Mosquito. The Nachtjagd kept concentrating grinding the heavies, which were doing the real damage to cities anyway. Which is the answer to your question WHY.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Source for the figures...?

My source is 2 Group RAF ISBN 0 571 11460 1 Appendix 10, your source for the claim of twice the loss ratio of other bombers, is what?

I think you've missed the part in my post which says 'when introduced'. You quoted loss figures for 1944. I am quite sure the Mosquito was introduced into combat much earlier.

No 2 Group Mossie squadrons became fully equipped with these aircraft in Oct 1943. The figures I gave were for 1944 but I have a breakdown for the first three months of 1944 if that’s better.

Mossies (Day) 1195 sorties, 7 lost to flak, 1 to fighters, unknown 9. total loss ratio 1.4 percent.
Mossies (Night) 244 sorties, 0 lost to flak, 0 to fighters, unknown 6. total loss ratio 4 percent

In addition I can say that Bomber Command lost 62 mossies to all causes (including non operational losses) in the whole of 1943. I am afraid I don’t know the number of missions but 62, little more than 1 a week doesn’t seem excessive. Its worth noting that a large proportion of these would have been flak and unknowns. (source The Luftwaffe 1933-1945 page 164)

Anyway, if you want to boast about loss rate figures, there are plenty of aircraft enjoying similiar or better loss rates as the Mosquitos at night, take a look at here and scroll down. http://les_butler.drivehq.com/jg26/thtrloss.gif

That's a 0.53 % loss rate on daylight sorties the East in 1944, 'twice as good' as the Mossie during the night over the Reich, but I very much doubt that's because Stukas and Heinkel's kept outrunning Soviet fighters in 1944, or were covered to teeth by cemented Krupp armor.. .

Sorry but I must be having a thick moment. Can you explain to me how you arrived at a loss ratio of 0.53% for daylight sorties over the East from the link provided?

A game with words, now that proves a lot... here's my version

'The truth is the Bf 109G-6/AS and later G-14/AS could take on the mossies of the LSNF and shoot them down as well as Mossie fighters, but there are some on this board who just can't bear the idea of his favourite nuisance bomber could be and have been shot down like any other bomber' .

Interesting choice of words but you still haven’t addressed the problem, if they could shoot the Mossies down by day or night, why didn’t they. It’s a simple question devoid of emotion and still waiting for a reply.

Second thing I don't quite get is what the importance of the night sorties thing. Night mosquitos were introduced after Bomber Command realized Berlin is just a too tough, and largely for propaganda reasons, they've created the light nightly strike force of mosquitos in 1944 that performed militarily insignificant, politically motivated nuisance raids on Berlin, the only questionable gain being enjoyed by the British propaganda ministry. They could have a headline that they've 'bombed' Berlin this night, again. Even if in reality it meant single aircraft dropping single high capacity bombs from high speed and high altitude without the slightest chance of hitting any specific target.

Waste of resources if you ask me, and the sensible German LW commanders must have thought the same, there were never any significant resource spent of combatting non-significant threats like the Mosquito. The Nachtjagd kept concentrating grinding the heavies, which were doing the real damage to cities anyway. Which is the answer to your question WHY.

Suggest you read up on the conflict a bit more. As for insignificant, thousands of missions each of which carried the same bombload as a B17 can hardly be called insignificant. Unless you call the B17 an insignificant nuisance bomber, which I doubt.

Plus they were ideal for pathfinding, recce, Photo Recce and weather reporting ahead of the main raids often alone, many hundreds of miles inside German territory and a number of other high risk tasks made them a valuable target, one the Germans tried hard to stop. Special units were formed and versions of fighters developed just to stop these happening and still they continued with low loss ratio’s.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

My source is 2 Group RAF ISBN 0 571 11460 1 Appendix 10, your source for the claim of twice the loss ratio of other bombers, is what?

No 2 Group Mossie squadrons became fully equipped with these aircraft in Oct 1943. The figures I gave were for 1944 but I have a breakdown for the first three months of 1944 if that’s better.

... why restrict Mosquito losses to No 2 Group and 1943...? Mosquitos were present with No 2 Group from November 1941, No 105 Sqn being the first to equip.

Osprey's combat a/c No 4, page 10 (Marin Bowman). It notes Mosquitos flying high flying missions in 1942 had losses comparable to Blenheims flying low altitude missions a year before, and the Mosquito was considered to be removed from production at all.

I recall the loss rate information was from here, but I don't have it handy to recheck. Amazon.com: Great Book of World War II Airplanes: Books: Rh Value Publishing

Originally Posted by Glider

Mossies (Day) 1195 sorties, 7 lost to flak, 1 to fighters, unknown 9. total loss ratio 1.4 percent.
Mossies (Night) 244 sorties, 0 lost to flak, 0 to fighters, unknown 6. total loss ratio 4 percent

Meaning they knew that 1 was lost to fighters, and they had no idea in 15 cases what hit them at all...

In addition I can say that Bomber Command lost 62 mossies to all causes (including non operational losses) in the whole of 1943. I am afraid I don’t know the number of missions but 62, little more than 1 a week doesn’t seem excessive.

Well more information would certainly be welcome. If only small numbers were deployed, then 62 losses are not slight at all, then there's the mission profile (I guess patrolling the Atlantic for example was a rather safe place away from 109s/190s - just an example) and the number of sorties made.

Its worth noting that a large proportion of these would have been flak and unknowns. (source The Luftwaffe 1933-1945 page 164)

You seem to have hard time accepting that unknowns can be due to by being hit by a fighter before you realize what's happening and report it.

Sorry but I must be having a thick moment. Can you explain to me how you arrived at a loss ratio of 0.53% for daylight sorties over the East from the link provided?

Wrong link !

http://les_butler.drivehq.com/jg26/thtrlosses.htm

Scroll down.

Originally Posted by Glider

Interesting choice of words but you still haven’t addressed the problem, if they could shoot the Mossies down by day or night, why didn’t they. It’s a simple question devoid of emotion and still waiting for a reply.

There's no problem. There are just rhetorics from you.

The question wheter Mosquitos can be intercepted by Bf 109s or FW 190s is a technical one - plotting possible Mosquito max level and cruise speeds vs. contemporary enemy fighters and see the results. Results show the Mosquito was considerably slower than either. Do that and come back when you're ready. You can't answer that with mere rhetrorics, I am afraid.

A better question, why Mosquitos operated at night... when they could outrun Luftwaffe fighters anyway, or so you suggest. Would not it be easier to bomb in the daylight?

Originally Posted by Glider

Suggest you read up on the conflict a bit more.

Suggest you drop the big attitude because if you're wrong, you'll look very silly.

As for insignificant, thousands of missions each of which carried the same bombload as a B17 can hardly be called insignificant. Unless you call the B17 an insignificant nuisance bomber, which I doubt.

The Mosquito is no-where near the class of a heavy bomber.
It's light bomber with a very limited bomb load, and yup, some late war versions were converted to carry a single, thin walled bomb which is pretty much useless to any purpose other than busting the roofs of civvy houses.

What military worth that has, tell me. The FB VI was a useful light bomber and interdiction aircraft. The B XVI et co doing the Berlin runs were little more than a high profile nuisance OTOH, an expensive handkerchief Harris put in front of his bloodied nose in early 1944...

Plus they were ideal for pathfinding, recce, Photo Recce and weather reporting ahead of the main raids often alone, many hundreds of miles inside German territory and a number of other high risk tasks made them a valuable target, one the Germans tried hard to stop.

It doesn't appear that they tried hard, nor there seems to be any special in these tasks at all. Yep the Mossie did that, as did other planes during the war.

Special units were formed and versions of fighters developed just to stop these happening and still they continued with low loss ratio’s.

Really? Can you name a few of these special units and fighter types, I am dying to hear of them... I guess you want to name a high altitude 109s, but you'd need to understand high altitude 109s existed before Mosquitos.

[mosquitoman]

Max bombload of a Mosquito: 4,000lb in one single bomb.
Max bombload of a B-17: 17,600lb (over a short range)
6,000lb was a normal bombload for a long range mission
Sources were: Aircraft of World War II by Kenneth Munson; The illustrated Dictionary of Fighting Aircraft of World War II and Mosquito in action part 1 squadron/signal publications

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

... why restrict Mosquito losses to No 2 Group and 1943...? Mosquitos were present with No 2 Group from November 1941, No 105 Sqn being the first to equip..

Because these are stats that I have and can quote

Osprey's combat a/c No 4, page 10 (Marin Bowman). It notes Mosquitos flying high flying missions in 1942 had losses comparable to Blenheims flying low altitude missions a year before, and the Mosquito was considered to be removed from production at all.

Interesting and I didn't know this. Did they quote numbers.

Re 105 squadron they received seven Mossie PR 1.
W4065 lasted 6 months
W4066 lasted 26 months
W4068 lasted 6 months
W4069 lasted 6 months
W4070 lasted 9 months
W4071 lasted 10 months
W4072 lasted 8 months
They then moved on to Bomber MkIV. I do not know how many missions they flew but to last a minimum of 6 months in front line action alone on PR misions is quite an achievement.

Meaning they knew that 1 was lost to fighters, and they had no idea in 15 cases what hit them at all...

I doubt that you have ever flown at night, I could be wrong. No it means that 15 were lost but the cause was unknown, by no means the same thing.

Well more information would certainly be welcome. If only small numbers were deployed, then 62 losses are not slight at all, then there's the mission profile (I guess patrolling the Atlantic for example was a rather safe place away from 109s/190s - just an example) and the number of sorties made.

I make it 5 squadrons equipped with Bomber Mossies in mid 1943. One month on average for a plane flying deep into enemy areas is very good. As for mission profiles the mid atlantic wasn't the place for Mossies.

You seem to have hard time accepting that unknowns can be due to by being hit by a fighter before you realize what's happening and report it.

Wrong again. The loss ratio's mentioned are for all losses. No doubt some were caused by fighters and flak. However in the entire war for all types and nations flying at night accidents were a major cause of loss.

Wrong link !

http://les_butler.drivehq.com/jg26/thtrlosses.htm

Scroll down.

Thanks I did. I notice the bit where it states that the West was a far more dangerous place to operate than the East. We are of course talking about the West, over Germany, the most heavily defended area in the world, by day and night, hundreds of miles behind German Lines. Not I suggest the same as the East where there were almost no German long range missions of any kind against a weaker opposition.

The question wheter Mosquitos can be intercepted by Bf 109s or FW 190s is a technical one - plotting possible Mosquito max level and cruise speeds vs. contemporary enemy fighters and see the results. Results show the Mosquito was considerably slower than either. Do that and come back when you're ready. You can't answer that with mere rhetrorics, I am afraid.

I think this is the main difficulty between us. You are looking at it as a technical issue. Plane A goes so fast, its faster than plane B, therefore it can shoot it down.
My position is this only happened on very rare occasions. More than 99 times out of a 100 the Mossie completed the mission without being shot down by a fighter. Such was the cruising speed of the Mossie it was very difficult, almost impossible, for the fighter to get into a position to intercept. If it did then there was every chance that it didn't have the fuel for a long tail chase as the mossie had a much longer range. I try to look at what actually happened instead of what could have happened and the actual experience i.e. loss ratio's prove this beyond any doubt.

A better question, why Mosquitos operated at night... when they could outrun Luftwaffe fighters anyway, or so you suggest. Would not it be easier to bomb in the daylight?

This has been addressed. Most of the night missions were in support of the Heavy bombers. Weather was a day and night operation, Target Marking a night operation, spoof raids a night operation. Some such as PR were mainly done in daylight plus of course the precision raids.

The Mosquito is no-where near the class of a heavy bomber.
It's light bomber with a very limited bomb load, and yup, some late war versions were converted to carry a single, thin walled bomb which is pretty much useless to any purpose other than busting the roofs of civvy houses.

The Mossies had the same bombload as a B17 to Berlin from the UK. Re the comment about destroying buildings, well that is what the British Heavy bombers did most of the time so the Mossie followed the same pattern. Factories, enginering works, power stations were buildings as were other major economic targets.

It doesn't appear that they tried hard, nor there seems to be any special in these tasks at all. Yep the Mossie did that, as did other planes during the war.

Name one plane that flew on a regular basis over Germany in daylight in 1943 let alone 1942 on PR, Recce, Bombing Missions with such a loss ratio. Or if you prefer a German plane over all parts of the UK

Really? Can you name a few of these special units and fighter types, I am dying to hear of them... I guess you want to name a high altitude 109s, but you'd need to understand high altitude 109s existed before Mosquitos.

Certainly.
If I can quote Erich earlier in the thread
4./NJGr 10 stationed in Holland during 1944 hoped it could catch Mossies en-route to Germany with their Fw 190A-8's ~ they failed every time...

HS 219B was supposed to be a Mossie catcher. The 410 was tried and the TA154 was inspired by the mossie. Re the High Altitude 109's I know they existed but didn't achieve much or even anythng at all.

[pbfoot]

The type of mission the Mosquito flew would also affect the losses they didn't fly in large groups and if they did it would be at lower levels . It would be very hard to scramble any aircraft to intercept a lo mission or even a small gaggle up high. Picking up a radar target on a small formation would be dicey at best let alone vectoring an interceptor on to it

[Hop]

yup, some late war versions were converted to carry a single, thin walled bomb which is pretty much useless to any purpose other than busting the roofs of civvy houses.

Actually the Mossies used large numbers of the 4,000 lb MC (medium capacity) bomb, which had less explosives and more casing than the thin walled HC "cookies".

To quote Tony Williams from another forum:

Not only was there a massive incendiary bomb using the cookie's casing, but as I posted before there was also the 4,000 lb MC bomb (effectively, a GP type) intended for attacking "substantially-constructed industrial complexes and shipyards from low level" (I am quoting from 'Bombs Gone'). "Trials indicated that it had good penetrative qualities even from 100 feet, achieving craters 14 feet deep and 54 feet wide". In practice, it was more frequently dropped from high altitude, from which its penetration capabilities were presumably even better. "However, the Group 8 Mosquitos used them most effectively at low level during 1944-45, fitted with 11-second delay (fuzes) to allow an adequate escape time."

[Jabberwocky]

That's a 0.53 % loss rate on daylight sorties the East in 1944, 'twice as good' as the Mossie during the night over the Reich

Kurfurst, you may need to recheck your maths re LuftWaffe daylight loss ratios, your out by a factor of 10....

9,760/186,004 = 5.37% loss rate (NOT 0.537%)


Bomber Command Moquito losses on Night Bomber operations from May 1943 to May 1945 were 108 losses and 88 additional write offs after return, in 26,739 effective sorties.

196/26,739 = 0.7% loss rate, with a 0.4% loss rate for crews, or about 1 in every 250 sorties.

Given that Mossies dropped, on average, 2,101 lbs of bombs per mission, thats about 525,250 lbs of bombs dropped per crew lost.

[mhuxt]

Christ, where to start?

First, don't expect numbers from the Osprey reference given. There are none. In fact, it's not even Bowman's research, it's a quote from a vet. Furthermore, he specifically limits the time period to three months in the summer of '42, July to September. He also says that the Mossie ops "were far more ambitious than Blenheim ops, but casualties were lower."

I can't speak for whatever rumours he encountered on squadron during the period in question, however at the end of July '42 the Ministry of Aircraft Production was at de Havilland's door to stress the need to ramp up production.

Night Mossies were not a response to the Battle of Berlin, which began in mid-November 1943. 109 Squadron made its first night sorties in December 1942. 105 and 139 Squadrons raided Berlin 5 times at night before the end of May '42. All up, 1,000 night Mosquito sorties had been flown at night into Europe before the Battle of Berlin even began.

Nor was the Cookie Mossie a response to the Battle of Berlin. The original instruction for development came in April 1943. By June the conversion was capable of carrying GP, MC and HE 4,000 lb.-ers.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by mhuxt

Christ, where to start?

First, don't expect numbers from the Osprey reference given. There are none. In fact, it's not even Bowman's research, it's a quote from a vet. Furthermore, he specifically limits the time period to three months in the summer of '42, July to September. He also says that the Mossie ops "were far more ambitious than Blenheim ops, but casualties were lower."

I can't speak for whatever rumours he encountered on squadron during the period in question, however at the end of July '42 the Ministry of Aircraft Production was at de Havilland's door to stress the need to ramp up production.

Night Mossies were not a response to the Battle of Berlin, which began in mid-November 1943. 109 Squadron made its first night sorties in December 1942. 105 and 139 Squadrons raided Berlin 5 times at night before the end of May '42. All up, 1,000 night Mosquito sorties had been flown at night into Europe before the Battle of Berlin even began.

Nor was the Cookie Mossie a response to the Battle of Berlin. The original instruction for development came in April 1943. By June the conversion was capable of carrying GP, MC and HE 4,000 lb.-ers.

Thanks for this, much appreciated.

[lesofprimus]

Just as a tidbit of info, Staffelfuhrer Peter Crump of 10./JG 54, flying an Fw 190D-9, dove on a diving Mosquito, PR Mk XVI from 540 Squadron RAF, on 11/11/44 and blew it apart, disintegrating across the south edge of Oldenburg...

Mossies didnt always get away...

[Erich]

Karl Mitterdorfer also shot down 2 Mossies of the LSNF flying a Bf 109G-6/AS at night in September 44, and I am reluctant to share anymore except this exciting story will be in our book for the future

Schwarmführer E ~

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Erich

Karl Mitterdorfer also shot down 2 Mossies of the LSNF flying a Bf 109G-6/AS at night in September 44, and I am reluctant to share anymore except this exciting story will be in our book for the future

Schwarmführer E ~

PLease let me know when this book is out. It looks like a cert for my Christmas list

[MAV_406]

it dosnt matter what any of you say the Mozzie had the looks.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And that has anything to do with the discussion?