Mosquito versus the German fighters

[Seawitch]

Hi all
Am I correct that a PR Mosquito was the worlds first Jet victim?

[helmitsmit]

The hornet wasn't really in the same league, it was a fighter/fighter-bomber. Normally with one man crew, and didn't have a bomb bay.

I am talking around the lines of a scaled up Mossie.

[Glider]

Its an interesting idea but the British had already decided that the Jet was the future. To this end they decided in 1944 that the replacement for the Mossie would be a Jet Bomber and that resulted in the Canberra.

For once an example of a correct decision, carried through to completion.

[mhuxt]

Originally Posted by Seawitch

Hi all
Am I correct that a PR Mosquito was the worlds first Jet victim?

Certainly the first claim by a jet was for a Mossie, however the aircraft involved got away.

I *believe* (so don't take my word for it, perhaps someone else can put me straight) that the first actual loss to a jet was a PR Spitfire.

[Soren]

Erich,

How well did the special purpose He-219's in reality perform against the Mosquito ?

And how did the various other German night fighters perform against the Mosquito ?

I know std. procedure for the German night-fighters was to hit the bombers and then run, trying to avoid any contact with the Mosquitos, but sometimes there were some head on clashes - but I only know of a few - some went well for the German night fighters, some didn't.

[Erich]

mark I think you are right though I am going to have to look into the fall kills-claims by the test Kommando and JG 7.

Soren arg !

~ not sure, but there was no special He 219 A-6, only a projection. Standard A-0's and A-2's brought down a total of 12 Mossies but on the other hand and I would have to look it up He 219's did not fare well against RAF intruders if they did not have rear warning radar. The Ju 88G-6 that had it as standard seemed to do the best to get out of the range of the Mossie 20mm's, the Bf 110G-4 units in most cases got creamed unless they were fitted which was getting into spring of 45 with rear warning defenses.

Actually from what I have found it was more by accident that the German twin engine NF got on the tail and shot down Mossies. On the other hand special anti-Mossie 109's of 10.(N)/JG 300 it was another story, frequently missing their foe due to ground control tagging them to late to catch the RAF craft, but the staffel was instituted for just that - to attack Mosquitos LSNF or NF's. Kommando Welter of course was the real off-shoot of the 109 unit performed well considering the numbers of 262 flown at night which were few and the result for the overall effect in the war was nil, only to somehow boost civilian morale in and around Berlin

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Erich

mark I think you are right though I am going to have to look into the fall kills-claims by the test Kommando and JG 7.

Soren arg !

~ not sure, but there was no special He 219 A-6, only a projection. Standard A-0's and A-2's brought down a total of 12 Mossies but on the other hand and I would have to look it up He 219's did not fare well against RAF intruders if they did not have rear warning radar. The Ju 88G-6 that had it as standard seemed to do the best to get out of the range of the Mossie 20mm's, the Bf 110G-4 units in most cases got creamed unless they were fitted which was getting into spring of 45 with rear warning defenses.

Actually from what I have found it was more by accident that the German twin engine NF got on the tail and shot down Mossies. On the other hand special anti-Mossie 109's of 10.(N)/JG 300 it was another story, frequently missing their foe due to ground control tagging them to late to catch the RAF craft, but the staffel was instituted for just that - to attack Mosquitos LSNF or NF's. Kommando Welter of course was the real off-shoot of the 109 unit performed well considering the numbers of 262 flown at night which were few and the result for the overall effect in the war was nil, only to somehow boost civilian morale in and around Berlin

Roger that Erich.

How about direct fights between He-219's and Mossies, could you research some incidents and or the usual out-come. I bet everyone would appreciate it, I know I will

How many losses of He-219's did the LW sustain ?

The Ju-88G-6 &-7's performed well against the Mossie you say ? Any shoot downs ?

As for the few Me-262b-1a1's deployed, they gave the Allies a licking, no doubt, a very effective night-fighter.

PS: Have you got info on how well the few Ju-388 night-fighters performed ?

I only just recently became very interested about the night-fighting over Germany and I must say its a very interesting subject, I definitely understand your interest in it as-well.

Many thanks

[Soren]

Btw, since there are many sources claiming different figures I'd like to ask wether the Ju-88 G-6 could really do 425 mph on MW-50 ? Other sources claim around 405m mph on MW-50.

[mosquitoman]

Quotes from a book I'm reading atm called Bomber Crew:
Luftwaffe fighter pilot Peter Spoden: "They were far superior to what the German fighter pilots had. They were faster, more manouverable, and the radar was much better. We were terrified of the Moaquitoes. Towards the end of the war we had a warning system, an acoustic detector. The sound increased when we were near a Mosquito. Then we turned off and went away. We were afraid of the Mosquitoes, particularly when we landed. The Mosquitoes waited over the German air bases and we had huge losses."

Wolfgang Falck: "That aeroplane was too fast, flew much too high and was far too difficult to catch with radar. It was a superb aircraft. When the Mosquitoes arrived, all we could do was shake our heads. The Mosquito was unique."

[Kurfürst]

One just wonders why it had to operate during the night like the other RAF bombers then... why no regular daylight Mosquito raids on Berlin.

Oh, sorry I forgot, the Mosquito was another 'invincible'.

[mosquitoman]

No plane is invincible, unless it's an SR-71
Well, the target marking Mossies had to fly at night because they were marking for the main bomber stream, this being done at around 1,00ft.
Mossies of the LNSF were used for diversionary raids to draw LW atention away from the intended target.
PR and FB Mossies flew around the clock.

[Erich]

you are correct mossie man to a point. many aces of the LW nf force never saw a mossie......strange you say ? yes very true. I know Peter S and his word is truth from his point of view while in NJG 6.

Soren: I'm going to make short quick responses as I am feeling quite ill today in this heat. last mention of 425 - yes

no Ju 388's nf operational.

He 219 will be covered in a work that is forthcoming and I am not allowed to mention more than what I have. losses and kills, first person accts will be included.

yes their were kills by the Ju 88G-6 crews over Mosquito NF's. I would have to dig them out but again this is also for one of my personal works in progress.

Kommando Welter Me 262 twin seater only scored 1 Mossie kill the rest and it is covered in our book on the Moskito-jagd were shot down by Me 262A-1a's

sorry to be so brief

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by mosquitoman

No plane is invincible, unless it's an SR-71
Well, the target marking Mossies had to fly at night because they were marking for the main bomber stream, this being done at around 1,00ft.
Mossies of the LNSF were used for diversionary raids to draw LW atention away from the intended target.
PR and FB Mossies flew around the clock.

Which brings us to the point, operational circumstances had a lot to do with losses and interceptions. Diversionary raids were often not bothered to be intercepted, if the defense figured it out, and the defense had the heavies as primary targets, and if that Ju 88 is pounding the Lancs at 4000 meter, he sure as hell won't pound the wooden wonder you're sitting in at at 9000m.. and btw the guy in the the JuJu is doing the tactically correct thing, shooting the down the more vulnerable aircraft that can do more damage.

It would be well worth to see and compare the loss record of Mossies operating in daylight and night as bombers, the ones as the main target force and as diversionary raids, FB mossies vs PR mossies.

Tactical circumstances far outweight technical ones IMHO. There are no wonder planes.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

It would be well worth to see and compare the loss record of Mossies operating in daylight and night as bombers, the ones as the main target force and as diversionary raids, FB mossies vs PR mossies.

Tactical circumstances far outweight technical ones IMHO. There are no wonder planes.

This may jog your memory, I posted this earlier in the thread.

I must also question this statement. Looking at the stats for 2 Group in 1944 the stats are
Mossies (Day) 1732 sorties, 1320 successful, 17 lost to flak, 1 to fighters, unknown 11. total loss ratio 2.2 percent.
Mossies (Night) 9899 sorties, 8877 successful, 4 lost to flak, 0 to fighters, unknown 73. total loss ratio 0.9 percent

To remind you no one has said the mossie was invincible, just that it did its job with a much lower loss ratio than any other plane.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

To remind you no one has said the mossie was invincible, just that it did its job with a much lower loss ratio than any other plane.

It didn't.

The B-26 had something like a 0.5% loss rate (it usually operated in daylight), the the avarage loss rate of LW's combat planes in 1944 on the eastern front was 0.7%.

In both cases it's considerably lower than the Mosquito daylight figures you gave (2.2%), even compared for the noctural operations (0.9%).

Thing is, neither the LW on the Eastern Front, neither the B-26, or the Mosquito got these loss rates because they had/were absolute super planes. The Eastern Front was huge, and B-26s and Mosquitos didn't draw as much attention from the LW as Lancasters and B-17s.

There was no 'wooden wonder', except in the propaganda ministry's leaflets.