Mossie nf vs He 219 nf

Chocks away! · 01-30-2005, 11:45 AM

bollocks. the 219 was a Mosquito KILLER! i don't buy any of this. Look at ot's first operational sorties. Take a look at it's armament and performance.

cheddar cheese · 01-30-2005, 11:49 AM

The He-219 was fantastic...

Erich · 01-30-2005, 11:58 AM

I have the proof as I own the Mossie kills listing from I./NJG 1. 12 mossies does not make the He 219 a Mossie killer. 10.(N)/JG 300 with Bf 109G-6/AS did better from September to November 44.

the Uhu needed work and only one gruppe took the Uhu on for ops. No BS here chocks

Gemhorse · 01-31-2005, 12:20 AM

The He-219 was a good looking aircraft, and had an impressive armament, but as stated before, it was grossly under-powered for such a heavy fighter....because they scored a few Mossies on their debut, it didn't make them a Mossie-killer....they were abit quicker than the Bf-110 and Ju-88 that were essentially used as the main radar-capable Luftwaffe Nightfighters, which I guess was why they clobbered a few, and quite possibly the one's they got may have been unarmed Bomber Command Pathfinders and Master-bombers; - Nightfighter Mossies were equipped with tail-warning radar as well as their frontal radar.... - But the He-219's were too few, too slow and too late to compete against an established RAF Nightfighter Force......

Just out of interest, '' shrage Musik ''wasn't a German invention....It was actually traced back to first being used during WWI by the RFC in the Sopwith Dolphins... The first German credited with using it, was Oberleutnant Schonert [...with the umlaut...can't figure-out how to do it on my PC...] who whilst serving with 4/NJG 2, experimented with a Do-17Z-10, using a 7.9mm MG, as a free-moving or a fixed-to-fire-obliquely-upward, weapon. It was not used operationally, but he then proposed a twin-upward-firing 20mm cannon to be tried on the NF version of the Do-217. He got permission to modify 3 of these, which were tested in the Spring of 1943, and Schonert, who was then serving with a Bf-110 unit, scored the first operational victory in May 1943, shooting down an RAF bomber over Berlin....
Over in the Pacific, Commander Yasuna Kozono of the 201st Naval Air Corps was nutting-out how to intercept B-17 & B-24 Night-bombers, and his proposal was to have two 20mm cannon fixed to fire up, and two to fire down, both at 30 degree angle....This was first fitted to a Nakajima J1N1-C Gekko [Irving] in the Spring of 1943 [also!].., and the first recorded success was the destruction of two B-24's over Rabaul in May 1943.......

Erich · 01-31-2005, 09:37 AM

Schragwaffen were developed in NJG 5 not 4./NJG 2 with Paul Mahle of 5 staffel mounting the first set up in a Bf 110G-4 and receiving quite a bit of monies for his efforts

KraziKanuK · 01-31-2005, 01:50 PM

Being of wood construction, how well did the German radars acquire the Mossie?

A general over view of German radars. http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevo.../gweapons.html

Another site on radar. http://www.radarworld.org/index.html

Mossies on a night bombing mission usually climbed to 25-30k ft over the North Sea/Dutch coast and then went into a shallow dive to arrive at the target at the bombing height.

Erich · 01-31-2005, 03:31 PM

German radar was sophisticated enough to pick up the starting engine noise in Great Britian, and it was usual procedrure to have staffeln of single engine a/c roaming at 30,000 feet "waiting" for the Light night strike force mossie's to appear. the only way the 109's could catch the mossie was from a higher altitiude and a dive onto the tail.....

KraziKanuK · 01-31-2005, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

German radar was sophisticated enough to pick up the starting engine noise in Great Britian, and it was usual procedrure to have staffeln of single engine a/c roaming at 30,000 feet "waiting" for the Light night strike force mossie's to appear. the only way the 109's could catch the mossie was from a higher altitiude and a dive onto the tail.....

The Germans had very good sound detection equipment but how does radar pick up sound? Iirc Flak was directed by this equipment.

Erich, I meant airborne radar which is not nearly as powerful as ground radar.

Gemhorse · 01-31-2005, 05:37 PM

Well, Schonert is indicated as being in a Bf-110 unit, at the time of the first victory with the 'schragewaffen'....I discovered these details from an article in Air Enthusiast International, 1974....Interesting that the British didn't use it again in WWII, the Defiants could've wreaked some havoc during the bombing of England....although it's not really 'cricket', is it, abit like shooting someone in the back, really............

Erich · 01-31-2005, 08:49 PM

yes they had radar specifics to pick up the Mossie but it was usually intercepted by visual sight and the useage of searchlioght lanes....

Schoenert first developed the idea with a Do 217 wiwth 4 2cm weapons and then used this a/c along with Bf 110G-2's while in NJG 5. As i said one particualr staffel was very successful and that was 5./NJG 5 with one of the mechanics plating the two guns to the floor of one of the Bf 110's in the radio-ops position/rear gunners.

Gemhorse · 02-01-2005, 04:43 PM

Thanks there Erich....

It was important on both sides that when an aircraft was picked-up on radar, when then chased, it had to be identified first before action could commence....although aircraft mis-identification often still occurred, especially at night.......

Gemhorse

Guchi · 01-02-2007, 02:18 PM

In my opinion, the He 219 was a very good nightfighter. The best the Germans fielded, but it was still no match for the Mosquito (esp. the nightfighter version).

The main drawback of the uhu was that it was underpowered. Not "grossly" as has been claimed by some on this thread, but underpowered nonetheless.

Let’s not forget that it was faster than the mossie, in "clean" conditions. Loaded up, and with those radar antennae, it slowed down considerably. Yet, for the NachtJagd, it was a weapon with the greatest chance of bringing down the elusive Mosquito.

It had great, well placed guns, good speed and ceiling and excellent range. The great advantage of the He 219 was the fact that due to its speed, range and efficiency, it was better able to make multiple successful engagements of British four engined heavies esp. Lancasters than any other German nightfighter. And that was Nacht Jagd's main priority. Catching the Mosquito was more of a secondary, though emotional and prestige bound issue. Being the only aircraft with the best chance of succeeding, it was tried out in the A-7 variant, but even that barely matched the performance of the British bomber.

What really amazes me, though, is what made the Mosquito such a superlative aircraft?

The engines on both aircraft are about the same hp. Infact the DB engines of the uhu claim higher hp than the Merlins.

The mossie weighs out lighter, which is also amazing considering that it was made out of wood, a material discarded in favour of metal-skin due to its weight penalties!

The wing area of the mossie is (I think) less that that of the uhu, which should even out the weight difference (I believe), yet Mosquito bombers would routinely fly at 10,000m (33,000 - 34,000 ft) while carrying a (4,000lb) cookie and easily evade a uhu staggering up to 8,000 - 9,000m (30,000ft) and struggling to keep up!

Phemenomal! I've still not figured out how....?

Erich · 01-02-2007, 03:23 PM

Baloney the Ju 88G-6 outdid the Uhu plain and simple ..........

NJGr 10 field tested the Uhu as well and portions of NJG 3 .......... they left their craft sitting on the grass fields, some with broken backs and were never used operationally. EVen NJg 1 as a whole was not impressed as only I./NJG 1 used the craft on ops. There is much more than underpowered issues that hampered the big craft as stated elsewhere in this thread, go re-read it.

the what if had there been time and the A-7 put into full scale production and inserted in the field, then yes possibly, the nose area was not large enough either to house the A-I radar dish and electronics and the cockpit layout was a joke as there was not enough room similar to the bf 110G-4

johnbr · 01-02-2007, 07:23 PM

The HE 219 was to get the Jumbo 222 for power but as we now that did not happen.The Db 603n or 603q also have worked. How is nasm doing on the he 219.

Guchi · 01-03-2007, 11:02 AM

Erich, the understanding I have (never having the opportunity of flying either aircraft) is that in the fly-off competition, between the two aircraft, the uhu came out on top. Also, according to the performance data (from a couple of sites on the web), I see that the uhu was faster with a slightly better ceiling.

Performance: Junkers Ju 88C-6
Maximum Speed: 300 mph (480km/h)
Service Ceiling: 32,480 ft. (9,900m)

Performance: Junkers Ju 88G-7b Nightfighter
Maximum Speed:
- 270 mph (435 km/h) at sea level
- 363 mph (584 km/h) at 33,465 ft. (10,200m)
- 389 mph (626 km/h) at 33,465 ft. (10,200m) with MW 50
- 402 mph (647 km/h) at 29,855 ft. (9,100m) without flame dampers
Time to 32,315 ft. (9,850m): 26.4 minutes

Performance: He 219A-7
Maximum speed: 416 mph (670km/h)
Service ceiling: 41,660 ft (12,700m)
Range: 1,243 miles (2,000km)

Performance: He 219A-7
Maximum speed: 616 km/h (knots, 385 mph)
Range: 1,540 km (nm, 960 mi)
Service ceiling: 9,300 m (30,500 ft)

Now I understand that a roomier nose section with room for four crew members and a larger “dish” antenna can definitely be considered a benefit, but it comes with its penalties of increased weight and drag. In addition, as per my information, the German “dish” radar (code named Berlin, I believe) was not ready at the time frame in consideration.

I was aware, from my own reading, that only a part of NJG 1 used the uhu operationally. I therefore find your claim, that other Nachtjagd units “rejected” the uhu interesting. I can think of many other reasons why a newer and controversial aircraft can have a long and slow gestation period; Production may be slow and there may not be enough aircraft to go around, the initial aircraft may have “teething” troubles, and may have many new and unproven features, and a controversy may give it a “bad name”, just to name a few.

If you have sources that show, that the crews of the other Nachtjagd units rejected the uhu on the basis of its (inferior) performance, I’d certainly like to be enlightned.