Mossie vs Ju88

[Erich]

plan I am not sure but the German rear gunners may have had a night fighters moon on the night of the Mossie shoot downs.

what I mean by this is that the Mossie was highlighted by the bright moonlight so there was much more than a familiar outline for the German crew to identify. A curse for the attacker, a saviour for the hunted prey

[plan_D]

True ... the Nachtjagd were kind of stuck in limbo though - they were the hunters and the hunted ...while the Mosquitos were the hunters, the bombers the hunted.

Moonlight would have been a blessing and a curse for the nachtjagd when on the prowl.

[Erich]

only a helpmate at low altitude against ground targets on the east and western fronts but that is another story. I will also make comment on helmetsmit Bf 109G-10 story as I have a bag of treats on this unit(s) as well......

[lesofprimus]

***Licking Lips and Salivating in Anticipation***

[Gnomey]

Look forward to it Erich

[Erich]

I've go so many scattered notes in the office this morn...arg !

let me touch on this briefly as it will be covered in our "Mosquito-jagd über Deutschland" book, and I am not wanting to flit this work. so to keep you all in suspense.

The Bf 109G-6/AS and later G-14/AS and G-10's in early 45 were used to chase down the Mossie bombers flying on three approaches towards Berlin to and away from the target back home. I./NJG 11 and 10.(N)/JG 300 as well as 1./NJGr 10 had the 109's and were used in this capacity from the summer of 44 till Novembers end when there was a revamping of the gruppen, 10 th staffel of JG 300 became the basis for II./NJG 11 and a new 10th staffel flying day missions occurred. NJG 11 then was removed from the anti mossie duties to chase down RAF 4 engine jobs as well as NJGr 10 single engine.

The tactik used was to get airborne individually and not by schwarm or staffel and follow at a grater height the Mossie bombers in "their" lanes highlighted by searchlights........... this wasw Helle nacht and not the typical Wilde Sau technique as most are familiar with. Once the Mossie was seen the Bf 109G pilot was hopeful he had the height and speed advantage and would dive down to try and catch the Mosquito. sometimes this worked and sometimes it did not.
I know of only one incident so far at least in the 10th staffel that a 109G-6/AS was returning from a mission to base and was attacked by a Mossie nf. the Mossie nf pilot overshot the 109 as the 109 pilot did a slight dive and turned hard and got in behind the Mossie and let go with his 2cm cannon bringing the Mossie crashing down to earth..........

The incidents involving nf vs nf of course are a bit different with the Mossie usaully being the hunter and the Ju 88G-6 crew the prey, evading, changing altitude, quick dives and then brough back up to altitude with the radar operator always listening for the change in the tickling in his earphones ~ an enemy intruder in the area.....
and as I said before earlier it was not uncommon after a long night that the German crew just headed for ground and opened up the bird and raced for home, hoping that the RAF AI would collect ground interference and not detect the Ju......the Ju pilot being on his toes that he would not send his crew into a hill yes it happened and I have pics to show these ugly mistakes.

[Jabberwocky]

Maximum speed for a Ju-88 A1 was about 460-465 kph, and about 60 kph slower with a full bomb/fuel load, mostly due to additional drag by the bombs which hung on external mounts

The A5, with longer span wings, Jumo 211Gs and more equipment (extra armour, more guns, revised undercarrige) was about 5 kph slower.

The A4 recieved the uprated Jumo 211Fs, could do about 475-480 kph unladen, but it didn't see BoB service.

A Hurricane wouldn't have too much trouble intercepting a loaded Ju88A1/A5. However, after they had dropped their bombs Ju-88 crews could generally enter a prolonged shallow dive and run all the way back to the French coast at more than 300mph, which made them very dificult to intercept on their return runs.

Generally, Allied twin engined fighters were the superior of their Axis counterparts. The P-38 was the only twin engined fighter of the war which could effectively dogfight with single engined fighters, as well having the aboility to haul the same bombload as most medim bombers by the end of the war. The Westland Whirlwind was described as a superlative dogfighting machine, but the expensive airframe, the Rolls-Royce engine situation and changing operational requirements prevented it from becoming the sucess it should have been. Performance estimates for the Whirlwind Mk II, with Merlin XIIs were around 420 mph. Essentially the Whirlwind was an airframe without an engine.

The early German zerstoyers (Me-110, Me-210) were not capable of defending themseves adequately against single seqat fighters. The later Me-410 was quite good, but its opposition, mostly in the form of escorting P-38s, P-51s and P-47s, were just too good in too many numbers.

The Mosquito had the lowest loss rate of any Allied bomber of the war. It was fast, adaptable to almost any role, heavily armed and capable of doing things no other Allied medium bomber could. In many ways it was the couterpart to the Ju-88 and their evolutions reflect that.

The Mosquito evolved first as a unarmed fast day-bomber (380 mph in first variants), then later into fighter, fighter bomber and night fighter variants. Emphasis was placed on attack; better bomber and fighter bomber variants with larger bombloads and better aiming equipment.

The Ju-88 started as a medium attack and dive bomber. Later variants shifted the emphasis to defence; night fighters and anti-tank/ground attack types. It still saw used as an night intruder and long range photo-reconissance plane, but decreasing emphasis was placed on these roles.

[Parmigiano]

According to this site

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/ge...8/Ju_88_nf.htm

the nightfighter late versions of the Ju 88 could actually reach speed in the 630 Kmh range (see G7b) with a more than respectable cruise speed of 560 kmh.

The G7c, with the new covered aerials could even had a bit less drag and be a bit faster.

Junkers Ju 88G-1
Role: Night-fighter
Crew: Four
Dimensions:Length (excluding radar) 47 ft 8.5 in (14.54 m), (including SN-2 aerials) 54 ft 1.5 in (16.50 m); Height 15 ft 11 in (4.85 m); Wing Span 65 ft 7.5 in (20.0 m); Wing Area 586.63sq ft (54.5 sq m)
Engine(s): Two 14 cylinder, air cooled, BMW 801D-2 radials of 1,700 hp (1268 kW) each.
Weights: Empty Equipped 20,020 lb (9,081 kg); Normal Take-off 28,870 lb (13,095 kg); Maximum Take-off 32,385 lb (14,690 kg)
Performance: Maximum level speed 356 mph (573 kph) at 27,890 ft (8,500 m) with SN-2 but no upward-firing guns, 342 mph (550 kph) at same altitude with 'Schräge Musik' installation; Service ceiling 29,000 ft (8,840 m); Normal range 1,553 mls (2,500 km); Maximum endurance on internal fuel 4.75 hours.
Armament: Four fixed forward-firing 20mm MG 151 cannon in ventral tray with 200 rounds each and one flexible 13 mm MG 131 machine-gun at rear of cockpit with 500 rounds. Optional 'Schräge Musik' installation in upper fuselage with two 20 mm MG 151 cannon firing obliquely forward


Junkers Ju 88G-7b
Role: Night-fighter
Crew: Three
Dimensions:Length (excluding radar) 47 ft 8.5 in (14.54 m); Height 15 ft 11 in (4.85 m); Wing Span 65 ft 7.5 in (20.0 m); Wing Area 586.63sq ft (54.5 sq m)
Engine(s): Two liquid cooled, 12 cylinder inverted-Vee, Junkers Jumo 213E of 1,725 hp (? kW) each.
Weights: Empty Equipped 20,503 lb (9,300 kg); Normal Take-off 28,885 lb (13,100 kg); Maximum Take-off 32,353 lb (14,675 kg)
Performance: Maximum level speed 270 mph (434 kph) at sea level, 363 mph (585 kph) at 33,500 ft (10,200 m), 389 mph (626 kph) at 29,529 ft (9,000 m) with MW-50 emergency boost; Cruising speed 348 mph (560 kph) at 29,529 ft (9,000 m); Initial rate of climb 1640 ft/min (500 m/min); Time to 30,185 ft (9,200 m) 26 min 24 sec; Service ceiling 32,810 ft (10,000 m); Normal range 1,398 mls (2,250 km); Endurance (at maximum economical cruising speed) 3.72 hours at 29,800 ft (9,083 m).
Armament: Four fixed forward-firing 20mm MG 151 cannon in ventral tray with 200 rounds each, two fixed oblique upward-firing 20mm MG 151 cannon in dorsal 'Schräge Musik' position with 200 rounds each, one flexible 13 mm MG 131 machine-gun at rear of cockpit with 500 rounds.

[Erich]

Parmigiano :

please allow me to make some corrections on the Ju 88G nf's.

first the G-1 did not have a crew of four, it was three.

Also and this is very important there never was a G-7 variant(s), also G-6 a, b and c are incorrect. there was never a sub-variant nomenclature as this was set up after hostilities by the RAF upon capture and inspection.
The G-6 could bust out 425mph on a flat out using MW 50 for a short term of 10 to 20 minutes, sometimes blowing out the Jumo engines during escape manuevers.

[Parmigiano]

Thank you Erich, I just cut-and-paste from the linked site, have no know how about the (infinite) variants of the 88!
Probably in the site they mixed up G6 and G7.

But apart from the emergency speed with the MW50 for the G6 (.. and btw 425 mph for 10-20 min is a hell of a run!) , what i find remarkable (if the site can be trusted) is the cruise at around 350 mph : this is the real operative speed and is a very fast pace, directly comparable with the Mossie. I always thought that the Mossie was much faster than any other 'bomber born' twins.

[Erich]

Here is some reseach still going on with an English contact. Ace and friend Heinz Rokker of 2./NJG 2 was the German pilot.

Hi Erich

The following is the copy of an e-mail I sent to George Sorrell niece, who is researching their family history. It is briefly what I have discovered and can prove with many documents and letters. It will be enough to tell you what I have and should at any time you want more them you only have to ask.

George Sorrell joined the RAF in Sept. 43. He trained as a Flight Engineer, probably at St. Athan. Having completed his training, he have then been sent to a "Conversion Unit", where crews had already been selected but did not require a Flight Engineer. At this point the crews moved on to 4 engined aircraft. In this case, George went to No. 1659 Heavy Conversion Unit at Topcliffe, where he joined the crew of "Jake" Thompson. Jake and all his crew were Canadians and belonged to 432 Squadron RCAF. It was at that time quite usual for "Commonwealth Squadrons to have British Flt/Engineers as all were trained in this Country.




All have since died from natural causes. Except Bill Worthington. The crew were generally older than usual (in their 30's) as most of them had been instructing in Canada. The two Gunners were 19.

From there they moved to 432 Squadron at East Moor, Yorkshire, on 31St Aug. 1944. The crew flew together on 16 missions.

On the night of 14th/!5th Feb.1945 the crew were to be sent on a raid on Chemnitz near the Czech boarder. At the last min. Bill was declared "unfit to fly", through a tummy bug and his place was taken by Dick Stringer.

On that night the crew were flying Halifax Mk VII, RG449, coded QO- S of 432 Sqdn and took off from East Moor at 4.49pm. The trip should have taken about 7 & a half hours. They completed the trip and dropped their bombs on Chemnitz and took a homeward course. Night fighter activity was extensive and at about 10.15pm they were attacked by a Junkers Ju.88. The first burst of fire set the right hand inner engine on fire and the second the left inner engine. This would have had a dramatic effect on the aircraft and the pilot gave the order to "Bale out". I have a report from one of the crew, who states the order of bale out and that the Flight Engineers station had been demolished by the gun fire and that George had been killed as a result of it. The aircraft crashed just west of Schonau an der Brent. All survived their jump, but George crashed with the aircraft. I have a first hand report that what little remained of George was buried in the local churchyard until 1947, if my memory serves me correctly, when he was transfer to the War Cemetery at Hanover.


Last May, Son Peter and his German wife visited Schonau, took many photographs and interviewed some people who remembered the incident. They were also shown the actual crash site. From my enquiries I am 99% sure that they were attacked by a Ju.88 flown by Heinz Rokker, the number 6 or 8 on the list of top night fighter aces. He is still alive and can confirm he and his crew shot down a "four engined" bomber at that locality and at about that time.



and yes friend the 350mph and faster is not a myth of the Ju 88G-6 in the cruise mode. The a/c fighter version was a powerful contender in the night skies as a nachtjäger.

[Erich]

some more comments. After the SN-2d or FuG 220d set was acquired and used on a successful basis the FuG 218 Neptun was being developed and sent to operational units, the FuG 220d was still the standard during 1945 and nother radar aerial fittings occurred for a more streamlined look, with less drag and thus more speed. Two version were used on a very limited basis the first was a horizontal fitting with the aerials in an X fitting toward a point directly in center of the nose outward as shown in the II./NJG 5 Gruppenkommandeurs 88G-6 a/c. Note the black doppelwinkel >> by the wing.....



and then to completly reduce the drag and provide maximum speed and endurance a special plywood nosecone was constructed to overfit the horizontal pole and X configuration with only the top of the X elements protruding and the tip covered in a special clear plexi-glas cover. the unit then was on par with the latest Mossie XXX in performance. The FuG 220d in this set-up was of limited operational use and the exposed FuG 220d with the 45 degree angled dipoles was continued to be produced.
A craft from NJG 4 under RCAF management at war's end

[Udet]

I have footage of Ju 88 As in trial flights: the manouvering is stunning.

Also I have footage of combat flights of Ju88s over England in 1940.

I will insist the difference between top speed of Ju 88 As and Hurricane Mk I is far from significant. Hardly an advantage for the RAF interceptor in that particular department.

Although off-topic, I used the example in an attempt to illustrate I do not believe the much faster, up-graded and improved Ju 88 G´s were "hopeless" against the Mossie.

As I said, Mossie´s performance is acknowledged; what I do think it is not accurately acknowledged would be the capabilities of the Ju88´s.



In fact, as Super Jabberwocky pointed out, a phenomenal dive was another feature of the Ju 88s.

Jabber: I have collected evidence on the 480 km/hr (bombload-free) attained by the Ju 88 on the flat run during the BoB, and of Hurricane pilots failing to catch it -and also of several who got killed by the MGs of the German craft-.



Jabber, regarding the Me 410 -do any web search- and you will find the typical allied prescription when referring to the latest Zerstörer; it is put pretty much a "good plane but"...but followed by any of these two choices of words:

(i) "was no match against allied fighters"; and
(ii) "stood very little chance against more nimble single engine enemy fighters".

The Zerstörer was involved in heavy air battles during 1944, and scored a good number of enemy fighters and not just heavy bombers. Did it take heavy losses? Sure; so did the great 109s, 190s, P-47s, P-51s, Spitfires...

The (i) specs (a nice feature: its weaponry, any single engine fighter of the USAAF or RAF caught in the right aiming angle could be pulverized to dust) and (ii) known combat record of the 410 suggests me it could more than deal, at least, with the P-38.

A rougher time could certainly come when engaging P-47s, P-51s or Spitfires, still I am not so sure if it was "hopeless". Also, the crews who flew it in 1944, a year of blood, praised the capabilities of the plane in combat. I do not think they were making tales up regarding the potential of the twin engined toy.


Finally, and back on topic, the fundamental target of the Nachtjäger were the heavy bombers and not the Mossies.

Now, in view of a one vs. one engagement, I´d rather withhold any prediction.

[Erich]

well lets remember one thing, the Ju 88G crews primary function WAS to bring down RAF 4-motors and secondary watch for Mossies or any Allied nf.. Not sure if any German nf attack was thwarted by the intervention of a Mossie nf, it is just on the trail going home that the German nf crew had to be a whole on top of things functioning unit.

As can be seen the quoted speed cruise and not by me mind you, was competitve with the latter marks of Mosquito nf's so in respects the Ju 88G was a larger a/c and not quite as nimble it could be a fair running race on the flat out, but with any intruder sortie the hunter had to have the quick jump on his prey no matter what nation would be contrived. One thing seen of course is the Mossie only had two crew members and no rearward armament something that upon different views could of been sorely missed.

[lesofprimus]

Excellent info and pics erich... Thanks.... Good info all around fellas....