Most effective planes of the early war years

Glider · 06-20-2005, 05:12 PM

Apologies for not including this in my previous post but in the discussion about the 109 vs the 520 or Hurricane it should be remembered that in the battle for France the vast majority of 109's only had 4xLMG giving the 520 and Hurricane a significant advantage in firepower.

FLYBOYJ · 06-20-2005, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider

I am afraid that I must disagree with those that say that the P36 was better than the Spit or even the Hurricane (although thats closer). It had advantages certainly but it was too slow. If the Spit got into trouble it could almost leave combat at will, due to its extra speed and trade that for tactical advantage. If the P36 got into trouble he couldn't leave combat and was in serious trouble.
The ability to dictate combat makes the Sptfire a clear winner in my book.

I don't know Glider, I think the P-36 could leave the combat 2 ways....

Where I have to somewhat agree with D on this is the -36 could dive and turn...(and I'm going to put my neck out and say that I think it might be able to out dive early 109s, Spits, and definitely Hurricanes).

As we all know if the early Spits dove straight, the engine died. I think its been established the -36 could out turn early -109s and were probably at par if not better than the Hurricane. And don't forget - The P-36 had that beautiful round engine that was almost indestructible, a major advantage over the other 3!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-21-2005, 05:14 AM

Also I think they were inmplying that the P-36 was better then the other aircaft in the Battle for France not that it was overall better then the Spitfire.

plan_D · 06-21-2005, 08:48 AM

The P-36 was superior to the Spitfire Mk.I in everything but speed and armament. The P-36s top speed was 311 mph, the Spitfire Mk.I had 362 mph. The Spitfire could almost always leave combat but that's basically all it's ever going to be able to do. The P-36 could chase Spitfire Is off time and time again.

The Hurricane could out-turn the P-36 as well but the speed advantage was only a few mph, with the fastest I've seen as 328 mph for the Hurricane Mk.I. The Curtiss P-36 was a 1934 design, it could get to 15,000 feet in 4.8 minutes!

The Mohawk.IV or Hawk-75A-4 was faster than the P-36 at 323 mph, that's almost as fast, if not faster, than the Hurricane I. It was faster than the Zero 21 though, that only had 317 mph. It was actually more powerful than the Spitfire, with the Wright-R-1820 producing 1200 hp but unfortunately the increased weight in the Hawk-75A-4 made it's time to 15,000 feet reduce to 6 minutes at 2820 fpm.
The Hawks over France were only A-1 through A-3, they were less well armed than the Bf-109E and were considerably slower but they could out-manuvre them at all speeds and altitudes and could take much more damage. The first kills in Europe were claimed by Hawk-75s, two Bf-109Es on the 8th September, 1939.

In Burma their service is little known, the IJN and IJAAF claimed many Hawks down but it was often against aircraft that were no longer air worthy and from a squadron that didn't exist anymore! Overall the Japanese claimed more Hawks than were even out in the CBI. I will try and find more information from the CBI because they were a match for the Zero 21 if used properly, the Zero could out-climb and out-turn at low speeds but the Hawk-75A-9 was superior in every other aspect.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-21-2005, 01:14 PM

I just would not have thought the P-36 coudl outmaneauver a Spitfire Mk.1 though.

plan_D · 06-21-2005, 01:38 PM

It could but the Spitfire was sooning jumping up and beyond the Spitfire I, by the V the only thing the Hawk-75 had left was it's turn. It sort of became the Zero, only the Zero is famous for being good during early war years and the P-36 just isn't famous.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-21-2005, 05:11 PM

So the P-36 was the allied Zero. No punn intended!

plan_D · 06-21-2005, 05:15 PM

Yes, only the Japanese had the myst surrounding their Zero whereas everyone knew about the Hawk-75. The Japanese knew all about it because they had been fighting them over China for a long time.
The Hawk-75A-4 and Zero 21 were both comparable aircraft, the Hawk-75 was always on the back foot though as the entire Allied contingent in Burma was retreating.

The Japanese greatly over-claimed the Hawks though.

Glider · 06-21-2005, 05:26 PM

FJ and plan D I have to stick to my guns. If a fighter can leave combat when it likes and by definition rejoin it when it likes, then it has the initiative. Any fighter with the initiative has the advantage. Examples are numerous

I would always stick with the plane with the initiative, as you have options and are on the offensive. If you are always or even mainly on the defensive then in the end, you lose.

FLYBOYJ · 06-21-2005, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider

FJ and plan D I have to stick to my guns. If a fighter can leave combat when it likes and by definition rejoin it when it likes, then it has the initiative. Any fighter with the initiative has the advantage. Examples are numerous

I would always stick with the plane with the initiative, as you have options and are on the offensive. If you are always or even mainly on the defensive then in the end, you lose.

While I agree with your statement, I think the dive performance of each aircraft needs to be examined. I think the P-36 might be able to outdive the Spit, -109 and Hurricane and with that it met the criteria for the ability of leaving combat at least against those aircraft.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-21-2005, 05:40 PM

The Fw-190D could outdive most of its opponants to get away and it did not have the innitiative.

FLYBOYJ · 06-21-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

The Fw-190D could outdive most of its opponants to get away and it did not have the innitiative.

I think because it was outnumbered, in some cases flown by low-time pilots, and tactically did not exploit that advantage, maybe because of the first two reasons. Comments?!?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-21-2005, 06:25 PM

No I agree on all your points.

Glider · 06-21-2005, 06:47 PM

I don't know the numbers but the Spit has a 50MPH advantage so the P36 would have to dive like hell. Obviously I am aware of the cutting out problems of the Merlin at this time so it may well balance up.

One point though. Diving to escape gets you away, it doesn't mean that you can get back into the fray on your terms, plus of course, you may not have the height.

No , I will stick with the Spit

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-21-2005, 06:51 PM

I am with Glider on this. I stick with the Spit over the P-36 but I will not be swayed from the Bf-109E as the most effective early war fighter.