Most effective planes of the early war years

Glider · 06-06-2005, 04:22 PM

I surrender on the Devastator

Chocks away! · 06-06-2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

yes i think the spit Mk.I should be included as she was in service before dunquirk.........

and i think this's really between the hurricane and -109E if the spit's excluded...........

and of course are we forgetting the wellington?? she was in service but didn't see and major action before dunquirk, but very few british planes did.........

I think you could say the D 520 was at least as good as a Hurricane

lesofprimus · 06-06-2005, 07:31 PM

I still gotta go with the Bf-109... No other plane truley dominated.....

Soren · 06-06-2005, 07:33 PM

Ill go for the 109 aswell, however the Stuka is a close second.

plan_D · 06-06-2005, 07:35 PM

The Bf-109 didn't really dominate. The shock and awe tactics made it seem that the Luftwaffe was unstoppable. Surprise is the greatest weapon of war.
Remember that the Allied air forces were pulling away from the advancing panzers as well.

If we're talking up until Dunkirk for fighters it's Spitfire, Hurricane and Bf-109.

Bombers it's He-111, Ju-87 and Do-17.

lesofprimus · 06-06-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

The Bf-109 didn't really dominate.

I disagree pD... When Britian declared war on Germany, and met those -109's, the world of aerial combat changed forever.... .303's? HA!

The Brits, and later on America, always seemed to try and counter the Germans, starting with the -109...
I wont dog ur Spit, because I favor it as well, but in the earlier stages of the War, it wasnt really the -109's equal.... Later is a different story...

Ur more into the ramification of things, so I wont preach to u, but Im sure u see the importance of leading a technological phase of warfare, and the advantages it creates... The -109 was fine tuned and proven combat effective by the time the Spit Prototype first flew...

FLYBOYJ · 06-06-2005, 07:56 PM

In the beginning of WW2, the -109 and Zero was the benchmark - everything else designed was made to counter it.

lesofprimus · 06-06-2005, 08:12 PM

We kinda ruled out the Zero tho........

plan_D · 06-06-2005, 08:13 PM

The Bf-109 certainly was a remarkable feat of aircraft engineering and technological advancement. However, if anything the Bf-109 was improved to meet the bar that the Spitfire had set.

The British learnt from the Germans in the armament sector. .303cal is laughable but not when there's eight plugging away at your tail. The E-3 of the Battle of France did not dominate over the Spitfire, the tactics of the Luftwaffe did.

The first Spitfire flew in March 1936. By August 19th, 1939, 10 squadrons of Spitfire were present in the U.K. I will say, with ease, that up to Dunkirk the Bf-109 was, without a doubt, the most effective fighter. Nothing stood in it's way, even the bravery of the Allied air men couldn't stand in their way.

The Germans generally set the bar in technology advancements which everyone else had to move up to but I don't believe that's so with the Bf-109, except with it's armament.
Keep in mind though, the Bf-109 had a chance to be perfected in the Spanish Civil War. Combat experience allows the best improvements. If the Spitfire had been sent to the Spanish Civil War, it's pretty safe to say it would have had 20mm earlier.

FLYBOYJ · 06-06-2005, 08:15 PM

yea, you're right, I guess I was exaggerating

Nonskimmer · 06-06-2005, 08:27 PM

Good points there, PD.

lesofprimus · 06-06-2005, 08:43 PM

But the Spit was produced due to the lackluster performance of the Hurricane, and the eventual threat of combat with the -109....

Otherwise I generally agree with u on everything else u said...

plan_D · 06-06-2005, 08:47 PM

The Spitfire was designed to replace older planes, as the Hurricane was. The Spitfire and Hurricane were designed and produced around the same time. In fact the Spitfire was in competition with the Hurricane for a production deal with the MOD.

Supermarine said that the Spitfire would be able to hold it's own against anything during the 40s. I don't know of any contact, if any, with Supermarine and the Bf-109 but I'm sure they got some combat reports from the Spanish Civil War, but I don't know.

lesofprimus · 06-06-2005, 09:41 PM

Quote:

In fact the Spitfire was in competition with the Hurricane for a production deal with the MOD

That I didnt know......

The Zurich Races in 1937 was the showcase for the beginnings of the -109... It broke records like a bull in a China Shop........

Do we have to compare the -109 ONLY to the Spit??? The -109 fought in Spain and Poland and France before the BoB, and owned everything else in the sky.... P.7 and P.11's???

1937-1939..... It was superior to EVERYTHING it flew against.. (before BoB and Spitfires) The Spit never did this.. The Hurricane never did this....

plan_D · 06-06-2005, 09:50 PM

Your post is exactly why I agree that it was the most effective fighter of early war years. I don't agree that it was the benchmark to which the RAF developed the Spitfire because it simply wasn't.

The Spitfire and Bf-109 did meet over France but I know little of their combats. Yes, the Bf-109 did do all that before the Battle of Britain, the Spitfire didn't but you know that the Spitfire could have done all that. It also didn't do all that before the Spitfire, the Spitfire flew in March 1936 before the Spanish Civil War had even got into full swing.

Spitfire against I-16, I-153, Pz.11c...