Most effective planes of the early war years

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by marseille jr

Let's not forget the dewoitine D 520. If I'm not mistaken , it racked up a favourable kill ratio against the germans, and that with pilots who often had flown less than about 10 hours in that type of aircraft. It was slower but more manoevrable than the Emil and packed 4 0.30 calibers and a moteur cannon (firing through propeller hub) ...considerable in those days.

I read this on a site : Even though it was lower in terms of pure speed to the Messerschmitt Bf 109E, the Dewoitine D-520 outclassed it in terms of maneuverability. For this reason, the Dewoitine was considered one of the best aircraft at the beginning of the war and it could have had a similar career, or a superior career, to the legendary aircraft that is now the Spitfire, the Focke Wulf Fw 190 or the Messerschmitt Bf 109. The D-520 was created in 1936 by the French designer Emile Dewoitine.

Big thing though: "Could Have Been". Cant speak to well for the French for the whole war.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Big thing though: "Could Have Been". Cant speak to well for the French for the whole war.

YEPPERS!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I really like the google search there. Was that an actual search or did you make it.

[FLYBOYJ]

Found it on the net, won't be too surprised though if it came out that way!

[cheddar cheese]

Originally Posted by marseille jr

Let's not forget the dewoitine D 520. If I'm not mistaken , it racked up a favourable kill ratio against the germans, and that with pilots who often had flown less than about 10 hours in that type of aircraft. It was slower but more manoevrable than the Emil and packed 4 0.30 calibers and a moteur cannon (firing through propeller hub) ...considerable in those days.

I read this on a site : Even though it was lower in terms of pure speed to the Messerschmitt Bf 109E, the Dewoitine D-520 outclassed it in terms of maneuverability. For this reason, the Dewoitine was considered one of the best aircraft at the beginning of the war and it could have had a similar career, or a superior career, to the legendary aircraft that is now the Spitfire, the Focke Wulf Fw 190 or the Messerschmitt Bf 109. The D-520 was created in 1936 by the French designer Emile Dewoitine.

I agree. The D.520 is hugely underrated.

[FLYBOYJ]

That it was! Wow - one thing the French did right!

[trackend]

Three little things
1. The Bismark was scuttled but was 100% going to be sunk.
So as the crew of the Bismark did not think "I know theres nothing on the horizon lads lets pull the plug to piss off Adolf " but new their fate was sealed , she was a wreak from stem to stern and would have been pounded to little bits she was unquestionably sunk by the British.
2. The lucky shot was probably just that the sighting device used on Stringbags consisted of a bar across the pilots line of sight with a row of lights each light represented 5knts so you find the speed of the target attack from the beam align the target with the correct light eg 20knts from the portside 4th light from the nose on the left hand side release your torp at 500-1000yards and bingo a hit however it was not that accurat that you could hit a ships stern on purpose. that said once she had been found lucky hit or not it was only a matter of time before her destruction.
3. (back on thread) I like Gliders list but I think id have the BF109 rather than the DE520 the 109 demonstrated it's abilitys right across europe and beyond where as the 520 had a very short span of combat operations before being excluded from the scene it was indeed a good plane but in my opinion did not operate long enough to show it's superiority over the 109

[cheddar cheese]

ROFLMFAO

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It may have been a fine plane but it did not do much. For what its worth though it did fair quite well when it was used.

When Germany invaded France on May 10th only GC I/3 was equipped with the D.520, with 79 planes. They met the Luftwaffe on May 13, shooting down three Henschel Hs 126s and one Heinkel He 111 without loss. GC II/2, GC III/3, GC III/6 and GC II/7 later received their D.520, and all took part in the Battle of France. A naval unit, the 1st Flotille de Chasse, was also equipped with the D.520. GC II/6 and GC III/7 converted to the D.520, but had been formed too late to see action.

By the time of the armistice at the end of June, 437 D.520's had been built, and 351 of these had been delivered. In that time they had 108 confirmed kills and 39 probables, losing 54 to enemy action. As French resistance collapsed in the middle of June, GC I/3, II/3, III/3, III/6, and II/7 flew their aircraft to Algeria. Three more from of GC III/7 escaped to Britain, and 153 machines remained in France.
http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/en...ine_d_520.html

Comparison of the Dewoitine D.520 and the Bf-109E

Dewoitine D.520C.1

Description
Role Day fighter
Crew one, pilot

Dimensions
Length 28 ft 8 in (8.7 m)
Wingspan 33 ft 6 in (10.2 m)
Height 8 ft 5 in (2.6 m)
Wing area 172 ft² (16 m²)

Weights
Empty 4,608 lb (2,090 kg)
Maximum take-off 6,129 lb (2,780 kg)

Powerplant
Engines Hispano-Suiza 12Y-45
Power 930 hp (690 kW)

Performance
Maximum speed 329 mph (529 km/h)
Combat range
Ferry range 777 mile (1,250 km)
Service ceiling

Armament
Guns 1x 20 mm cannon
4x 7.5 mm machine guns
Bombs

Messerschmitt Bf-109E

Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke

Engine:
Model: Daimler-Benz 601Aa
Type: Liquid Cooled Inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 1,150hp

Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 4.5 in.
Length: 28 ft. 8 in.
Height: 8 ft. 10 in.
Wing Surface Area: N/A

Weights:
Empty: 4,440 lb.
Maximum, Loaded: 5,520 lb.

Performance:
Maximum Speed: 357 mph at 12,300 ft.
Maximum Climb: 3,100 feet per minute
Range: 412 Miles
Service Ceiling: 36,000 ft.

Armament:
Two 20mm MG/FF mounted in the wings with 60 rounds per gun
And
Two 7.9mm MG 17 mounted above engine with 1,000 rounds per gun

In all actuallity the Bf-109 is still superior to the D.520. It is more superior in performance, engine rating, and armament. The only thing the D.520 had going for it was the range being superior to the the 109.

Still all in all I will agree that the 520 was underated.

[trackend]

Thats cruel Fly funny but cruel

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by trackend

Thats cruel Fly funny but cruel

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by trackend

Three little things
1. The Bismark was scuttled but was 100% going to be sunk.
So as the crew of the Bismark did not think "I know theres nothing on the horizon lads lets pull the plug to piss off Adolf " but new their fate was sealed , she was a wreak from stem to stern and would have been pounded to little bits she was unquestionably sunk by the British.

Very true. She was going to go down. She was a wreck! I think it was more of a "Lets not let the Brits have her".

[delcyros]

Umm, don´t be too sure in this.
Because I believe it is not that far off topic (since the actions, originated in the Swordfish launched fluke hit lead to the complete removal of Atlantic surface operations and therefore were in anyway highly effective for the curse of war) we should discuss it.
I know, I am going to be misunderstand but I should tell a little about it:
A survivor of Bismarck, whom I had the opportunity to ask,
told me that the Zitadelle (e.g. the protection system) of the ship was intact in the time he left the ship. This is confirmed by almost all books, I read. The ship was in no seaworthy condition, but it wouldn´t have been sunken by the RN actions. Fact is that the KGV and Rodney as well as several cruisers wrecked the upper parts of the ship by firing from almost point blanc range. The ship was on fire and silenced. In this way, it can be said that the ship was no more an active combat unit. However, it wasn´t an effective combat unit prior to this because the rudder controll was out of action and therefore, the ship had no controll of the course (it proved to be difficult to hit anything if the ship changes continously direction). But it was scuttled by it´s own crews initiative (beside of what some germans might say mostly because they wanted to leave the ship in order to survive). Even additional torpedo hits wouldn´t have a big chance to sink her. Repaeted hits could do so (around 45 torpedos have been fired on the Scharnhorst, no less than 12 hit the ship, same torpedo protection system).
Excaminations of the wreckage confirmed this. In order to sink the ship at least 12 of 24 protected, watertight compartments must be filled with water. Actually only 1 took water at the moment the ship was abandoned.
The extensive gun bombardment from close range could pierce the heavy 320 mm KC main belt but not the sloped, 100 mm Wh armor behind it. Even a Yamato class gun would have almost no probability to do so ( except from direct 90 degrees impact at below 2000 ft. distance). The torpedo protection system would ensure protection against torpedoes up to 60 cm warhead class except for bow and stern hits or flukes.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Very true. She was going to go down. She was a wreck! I think it was more of a "Lets not let the Brits have her".

AGREE! EVERYBODY SING! \/

Sink The Bismark
Johnny Horton

In May of l941 the war had just begun
The Germans had the biggest ship, they had the biggest guns
The Bismark was the fastest ship that ever sailed the sea
On her deck were guns as big as steers, and shells as big as trees.

Out of the cold and foggy night came the British ship, the Hood
And every British seaman, he knew and understood
They had to sink the Bismark, the terror of the sea,
Stop those guns as big as steers and those shells as big as trees.

We'll find that German battleship that's making such a fuss,
We gotta sink the Bismark cause the world depends on us. We'll hit the decks a-runnin' boys and spin those guns around
Yeah, and when we find the Bismark we gotta cut her down!

The Hood found the Bismark, and on that fatal day
The Bismark started firing fifteen miles away
"We gotta sink the Bismark!" was the battle sound
But when the smoke had cleared away, the Mighty Hood went down.

For six long days and weary nights they tried to find her trail.
Churchill told the people, "Put every ship asail,
For somewhere on that ocean, I know she's gotta be
We gotta sink the Bismark to the bottom of the sea!"

We'll find that German battleship that's making such a fuss
We gotta sink the Bismark cause the world depends on us
We'll hit the deck a-runnin' boys and spin those guns around
And when we find the Bismark we gotta cut her down.

The fog was gone the seventh day, and they saw the morning sun.
Ten hours away from homeland the Bismark made its run.
The admiral of the British fleet said, "turn those bows around,
We found that German Battleship and we're gonna cut her down!"

The British guns were aimed and the shells were coming fast,
The first shell hit the Bismark, they knew she couldn't last
That mighty German battleship is just a memory.
"SINK THE BISMARK!" was the battle cry that shook the seven seas!

We found that German battleship that was making such a fuss.
We had to sink the Bismark cause the world depends on us.
We hit the deck a-runnin' and we spun those guns around, yeah, and when we found the Bismark, we hadda cut her down!

[trackend]

Very yohoho FBJ i hoped you all joined in

Delcros I think you,re talking through your scuttles.
It interrupted operations for how many days?
There has never been and will never be an unsinkable ship.
If the RN had sailed up 500 yards away and pumped all the main armament of two battleships broadside after broadside into it I can assure you irrespective of what protection systems the Bismark had, it would have sunk as it was before this was completed the crew scuttled her. To intimate that it was unsinkable and could only be sunk by scuttling. Not really sensible is it. be fair Del.
Excluding even that supposing the RN had left it afloat what would have happened.
The Kreigsmarine nip out with a couple of tugs get her in tow and take her back for a quick whiz over with a tin of Hammerite or Dulux non drip.?
"Mother put on the kettle I have a Headache" . YE GODS!!!