Most effective planes of the early war years

delcyros · 06-10-2005, 12:05 PM

No, trackend, I wouldn´t go so far and say that the Bismarck was unsinkable. This wouldn´t be true. In fact, the Bismarcks protection system is sensitive against hits from high angles at greater distances ( in this way, it was more sensitive than the contemporary Roma or KGV-class). It´s protection system was optimized for close distances , just the game, the RN played with her. Under no circumstances a 16 inch or 14 inch grenade from even 50 yards could send her down to the bottom of the ocean.
This is confirmed by Nathan Okun´s excellent comprehensive analysis of the Bismarcks protection system.
The Rodney would have a pretty chance to blew up the Bismarck if it can hit the boiler rooms from 24.000 yards or the magazines from 26.500 yards and more distance.
The Swordfishs did a great job. They knocked out parts of the ship which had not it´s otherwise good topredo protection (the rudder controll at the stern).

Nonskimmer · 06-10-2005, 12:10 PM

Interesting discussion, boys.

And FBJ, that mag cover is funny as hell!

trackend · 06-10-2005, 12:18 PM

Del you are in dia need of a humour transplant take two of these \

/ three times a day if things dont improve come and see me next week

FLYBOYJ · 06-10-2005, 01:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Nonskimmer

And FBJ, that mag cover is funny as hell!

marseille jr · 06-10-2005, 02:40 PM

I am glad to see my reference to the D520 enjoys some approval.

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Big thing though: "Could Have Been". Cant speak to well for the French for the whole war.

Yeah, but there were barely D520's in service by the time Them Germans struck. And the few that were available were flown by pilots who often had only 5 hours flying experience in it. And yet it notched up a favourable kill ratio against the experienced Luftwaffe pilots flying the Emil. It simply was a promising plane that came too few, too late ... and a good looking one too !!!

marseille jr · 06-10-2005, 02:53 PM

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In all actuallity the Bf-109 is still superior to the D.520. It is more superior in performance, engine rating, and armament. The only thing the D.520 had going for it was the range being superior to the the 109.

you forgot manoeuvrability in favor of the D 520. And i wouldn't be too sure about the armament. It had only one cannon but it was centered in the middle (cfr emil - friedrich). I also read it could dive well and without locking up the controls too much.

so that leaves us with topspeed (climb?) + engine rating vs range + manoeuvrability. They seem pretty well matched. And still the unexperienced pilots français racked up a favourable kill ratio... it definetely was underrated!

FLYBOYJ · 06-10-2005, 03:14 PM

But as said, "could of been," but agreed, it was a good airplane. Werner Molders was shot down by one I believe.

Chocks away! · 06-10-2005, 03:21 PM

Yep, he was indeed. And the pilot that shot him down was also shot down and killed by another Emil , if i'm not mistaken.

the lancaster kicks ass · 06-10-2005, 03:56 PM

too few too late!! it was designed in 1936 how much time did they need!!

FLYBOYJ · 06-10-2005, 03:59 PM

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Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

too few too late!! it was designed in 1936 how much time did they need!!

Well it was French

plan_D · 06-10-2005, 06:10 PM

The Spitfire first flew in March 1936, it wasn't much older than the D.520.

FLYBOYJ · 06-11-2005, 12:12 AM

It wasn't French (thank god)

marseille jr · 06-11-2005, 06:24 AM

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too few too late!! it was designed in 1936 how much time did they need!!

Premier vol: 2/10/1938; Production: 3/12/39; Livraison: 1/02/1940

translated : first flight at 2nd october 1938, production started in december 1939, first deliveries in february 1940. (First drawings were made in 1937 btw.)

On espérait l'équiper d'un moteur de 1300cv..

They hoped to equip it with a 1300HP engine ... but that never happened (910 was all it got)

Il abbatit néanmoins près de 150 avions ennemis pour une perte de 85

It knocked out almost 150 ennemy planes for the loss of 85 of their own (against the much more experienced germans)

seuls 36 étaient en service le 10 mai 1940, un nombre tout à fait insuffisant pour faire face à la toute puissante Luftwaffe

Only 36 were in service on 10 may 1940, absolutely not enough to face the powerful luftwaffe on equal terms.

Dans les opérations militaires et la courte période qui vit la France et l'Allemagne s'affronter dans les airs, le D-520 se révéla supérieur au Messerschmitt Bf 109-E3 pour ce qui est de la manoeuvrabilité, mais inférieur quant à la vitesse maximale

in the short period France and Germany contended in the air, the D520 revealed itself to be superior in terms of manoeuvrability to the BF 109 E-3, but inferior in terms of top speed.

Amen

delcyros · 06-11-2005, 06:31 AM

I must admit, that the D-520 is a beauty.
But this thread goes for the most effective plane of the erly stage of war and even a record of 150 kills is not that impressive, compared to the Bf-109 or Hurricane. Keep also in mind that almost all single engined fighter planes have a positive loss to kill relation (including the polish P-11 fighter).

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-11-2005, 08:32 AM

The development of the D.520 started in 1936. So in the time that the British developed the Spitfire and the Germans developed the Bf-109 the French could not speed up there progress on the D.520.

I am sorry if I am being biased here I think the D.520 was an underated aircraft as you stated and she did well for the time she was in service but I just dont like French planes.

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Design of the Dewoitine 520 started in November 1936 at the private design firm led by Emile Dewoitine. Trying to address problems in earlier designs, he created a fighter using only the latest techniques and engines. The new design was to be able to reach 520 km/h, and became known as the "520". Only months later the firm was conglomorated into one of a number of design-and-manufacturing pools, in this case SNCAM. Still known as the D.520, work on the design continued at the new company.

The first prototype D.520 flew on October 2, 1938, powered by the new 890 hp (660 kW) Hispano-Suiza 12Y-21 liquid-cooled engine. The plane managed to reach only 480 km/h in flight tests, much slower than expected. Most of the problem seemed to come from greater than expected drag from the underwing radiators, so these were merged into a single radiator under the fuselage. After minor damage in a landing accident the engine was upgraded to a newer -29 and included exhaust ejectors for added thrust, along with an adjustable prop. These changes were enough to allow the plane to reach its design speed.
http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/en...ine_d_520.html

With the War looming in 1939, you would have thought the French would have ordered more aircraft then they did....

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Flight tests went fairly well, and a contract for 200 production machines to be powered by the newer -31 engine (later replaced by the -45) was issued in March of 1939. A contract for an additional 600 planes was issued in June, but this was reduced to 510 in July.
http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/en...ine_d_520.html

And a bit too late.....

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With the outbreak of war in September 1939 a new contract brought the total to 1280, with the production rate to be 200 machines per month from May 1940 onward. The Aeronavale then ordered 120 for their own use. Another Armée de Air order in April 1940 brought the total to 2250, and increased quotas to 350 a month.
http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/en...ine_d_520.html

Sorry guys but the French here botched this one up again, they have a habit of it.