Most effective planes of the early war years

[lesofprimus]

Yea, that and the manufacture of French Surrender Flags...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Very true. They are now making 2 models of French Army knives to issue out to there troops.

[cheddar cheese]

Stars and Stripes pacifier

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeah I thought those were funny.

[Chocks away!]

I still think the Dewoitine is in the best of the bunch. Think of the number in service and how many they shot down. They saw some action my friends!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The D.520 was deffinatly underated but as for the early war years I still have to go with the Bf-109E and the Hurricane. In all actually both of these aircraft would send the French flying for safety over a period of time. The D.520 was the solution for the French who took to long to develop the aircraft. It was still a fine aircraft though, dont take me wrong.

[marseille jr]

I still think the Dewoitine is in the best of the bunch

Exactly. Not the best, but among the best. Most pilots only had flown about 5 hours in the aircraft and still managed to hold their own against numeriorically superior germans with months/years of experience in their emils. If the D520 wasn't on par with the Emil, this couldn't have happened unless all french pilots were Marseilles and Nowotnys... which obviously wasn't the case.

But consider this. Against the Emil it had its manoeuvrability and range to make up for the speed and engine rating shortcomings, but against the spitfire ... it definetely lost it's manoeuvrability advantage. I think this might perhaps be a reason why that the spit can be hailed as best dogfighter in the early stage of the war, despite my penchant for the BF 109. What do you guys think of this deduction?

Design of the Dewoitine 520 started in November 1936 at the private design firm led by Emile Dewoitine

Mmmmm. I read on different french sites development started in january 1937. I'd guess that french sites will be more accurate as it's a french plane.

Sorry guys but the French here botched this one up again, they have a habit of it

Yes. Not that a whole lot D520's would have changed the outcome though.

But this thread goes for the most effective plane of the erly stage of war and even a record of 150 kills is not that impressive, compared to the Bf-109 or Hurricane

Only 36 were in service on 10 may 1940. You can't expect that pilots who barely knew the plane would rack up 1000's of aerial victories with so few planes.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Originally Posted by marseille jr

Quote:
Design of the Dewoitine 520 started in November 1936 at the private design firm led by Emile Dewoitine


Mmmmm. I read on different french sites development started in january 1937. I'd guess that french sites will be more accurate as it's a french plane.

there is an element of truth in this however do not just go by this, always look for several sources when getting data, are sites in english always right about english planes?? no.........

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well you know every site I hae been to says 1936 development started. Maybe they are wrong, will I ever know, problaby not because I was not on the design team of the aircraft, but I go with the common rule here.

I agree with what you say though about being among the best but not the best.

[marseille jr]

Well you know every site I hae been to says 1936 development started. Maybe they are wrong, will I ever know, problaby not because I was not on the design team of the aircraft, but I go with the common rule here.

D520 dont la conception avait débuté en 1937
http://henry.chez.tiscali.fr/nn/D520.html

Un projet modifié, désigné D.520 en référence à la vitesse exigée, est soumis en janvier 1937
http://caea.free.fr/fr/coll/d520.html

Both French sites state it was 1937. I regret we will never know the exact truth, but I'm inclined to 1937 here.

In trials on 4/21/40 with a captured Bf 109E3, the Bf109 was 20 mph faster due to the higher power of its engine, but the D.520 had superior maneuverability and handling.
http://members.aol.com/bogdanovaslav...rian_D520.html

[plan_D]

What's the point in all this. Everyone has agreed the D.520 was under-rated and that it's 'among the best'. It's hardly an effective plane of the early war years.

The mention of the kill ratio, the FAF got a 26:1 kill:loss ratio with Brewster Buffaloes. Does that make the Buffalo a good plane? I think not.

The French would have been better with Hawk-75s than D.520s. The Bf-109 was the most effective early war fighter. The Hurricane up to Dunkirk didn't have much to say in the matter, it shone through during the Battle of Britain.

And 200 machines per month! My god, that's a disgrace. Britain was throwing out 1000 Spitfires and Hurricanes a WEEK during the height of production in the Battle of Britain.

[marseille jr]

The Bf-109 was the most effective early war fighter

Mmmm the Emil couldn't really outperform the spit (except with negative G manoeuvers but that was quickly solved) while the spit could easily outturn the BF 109. I don't think the Emil's pair of twin slow firing cannons would completely make up for this. The germans were just lucky to have battle hardened veterens and well proven tactics to account for so many british planes.

Still I have to agree with you to some extent. Personnally I've always considered the spit and the Bf 109 each others equal (until 1943). They were along with the D520 the best planes of 1937-1940 (omitting the first reisen versions).

[plan_D]

First off, this thread clearly stated "...up to Dunkirk..." the Spitfire did not serve in France, it served to protect the evacuation at Dunkirk only.

Secondly, effective doesn't mean technical ability. The Spitfire had no effect on the Battle of France because it wasn't there! I don't think you understand the term effective.

Effective ~ Adjective;

1. a) Having an intended or expected effect
b) Producing a strong impression or response

Up to Dunkirk the Spitfire did not have the oppurtunity to create a strong impression. The Bf-109, however, did have the oppurtunity and created the largest impression of any fighter in the early war years.

There's no real need for a discussion on the technical ability of either aircraft as the Spitfire Vs. 109 debate has been raging for many a decade.

The Spitfire and Bf-109 were both superior creations to the D.520. The Hawk-75 was better than the D.520 as well, this plane would have put much better service in as it out-performed the Spitfire Mk.I in everything but speed.

[Smokey]

I don't understand why some find the stereotype of french soldiers running away funny.
Are you saying that if you were in a war you would stand and fight? 99% of soldiers would literally **** themselves, scream and run away or surrender when there was'nt an officer around to shoot them for desertion.

Oh, and not surpisingly it has been proven that only 1 or 2 % of soldiers shoot to kill in combat, they are too sickened to murder someone.

[plan_D]

99% of soldiers would run away? Do you want to provide evidence to back up that statistic?

By that simple statement you have disgraced every single man in history that has fought on a field of battle, that has seen his friends die, that has been injured in a conflict and that has ultimately paid the ultimate price, his life.

All of those men that ran up those beaches, jumped out of those planes, ran across those fields, flew those bombers, sailed in those ships during World War 2 to secure your freedom of speech, you have insulted. You ****-ing moron!

Who the **** do you think you are!? Sure they were scared, who wouldn't be!? Those men were ALL scared but bravery isn't being scared, it's BEING scared and getting off your ass and doing the job anyway! You arsehole!

Now, for everyone else with a bit of sense here's an amusing website.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

Enjoy.

Oh yeah, and Smokey, you're an arsehole.