Most 'Underrated' Aircraft of WW2?

[grwhyte]

When thinking of heavy night fighters I think that the p-61 blackwidow would be just as heavy as the Do 217 and that did very well out in the Pacific

[Lucky13]

Like her namesake, she had a real sting....

[grwhyte]

you can say that again radar, 4 20mm cannons, 4 .50 cals. plus rockets and bombs. I wouldn't want to get caught in her web.

[amrit]

Planes that have gotten a raw historical deal - in no particular order:

Buffalo
P-36 Mohawk
A-20 Havoc/Boston
P-40
P-47
P-61 BlackWidow
Hurricane
Wellington
Me 109
Me 109G
Me163
Me110C
Do17
Do217
JU87
He111H
He177
Ba349
"Other late Italian fighters"
Lagg 5
Lagg 7
Vultee Vengeance
Will update this list as other aircraft are listed

[Civettone]

Too heavy, too slow, and not easy to fly. It was too much of a conventional bomber.

The P-61 did well in the Pacific? I can imagine, given their opposition. In Europe, the P-61 was rather a disappointment. Moderator Erich likes to mention how they completely failed to intercept the Stukas.

Kris

[grwhyte]

OK I see that the focus has been mostly on the E.T.O. Let's move on and see what the Pacific has to offer. Shall we see if the Pacific has anything to offer. May I suggest the Japenese Tony fighter. fast, nimble, average firepower.

[amrit]

The Vultee Vengeance was another aircraft that proved itself worthy of acclaim but has been denegrated as unsuccessful. It performed brilliantly in Burma.

[Civettone]

Perhaps the Ki-45? A bit the Bf 110 story, not a good fighter but overall a good and versatile airplane.

Kris

[FLYBOYJ]

How about the Halifax...

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by amrit

Planes that have gotten a raw historical deal - in no particular order:

Buffalo
P-36 Mohawk
A-20 Havoc/Boston
P-40
P-47
P-61 BlackWidow
Hurricane
Wellington
Me 109
Me 109G
Me163
Me110C
Do17
Do217
JU87
He111H
He177
Ba349
"Other late Italian fighters"
Lagg 5
Lagg 7
Vultee Vengeance
Will update this list as other aircraft are listed

And then I'll put it into a poll.

[Lucky13]

Crew training and competition from the Mosquito
Crew training and competition from the Mosquito
Training of P-61 crews commenced in a variety of ways. Several existing night fighter squadrons operating in the Mediterranean and Pacific Theatres were to transition directly into the P-61 from Bristol Beaufighters and Douglas P-70s, though most P-61 crews were to be made up of new recruits operating in newly commissioned squadrons. After receiving flight, gunnery or radar training in bases around the U.S., the pilots, gunners and radar operators were finally combined and received their P-61 operational training in Florida for transfer to the European Theatre or California for operations in the Pacific Theatre.

The 422nd Night Fighter Squadron was the first squadron to complete their training in Florida and, in February 1944, the squadron was shipped to England aboard the Mauritania. The 425th NFS was soon to follow aboard the Queen Elizabeth.

Upon arrival in England, the two squadrons found they were without any aircraft. The crews passed the time by flying the base's Airspeed Oxford and Cessna C-87, as well as visits to local towns and occasionally to London.

The situation deteriorated in May 1944 when the squadrons learned that several USAAF Generals believed the P-61 was too slow to effectively engage in combat with German fighters and medium bombers. The RAF shared this view, based on a single P-61 they had received in early May. The RAF championed switching to their De Havilland Mosquito Mk XVI. Several pilots in the 422nd NFS threatened to turn in their wings if they weren't permitted to fly the "Black Widow." At the end of May, the USAAF insisted on a competition between the Mosquito and the P-61 for operation in the European Theatre. RAF crews flew the Mosquito Mk XVI while crews from the 422nd NFS flew the P-61. In the end the USAAF determined that the P-61 had a slightly better rate of climb, and could turn tighter than the Mosquito. The RAF disputed these claims and continued to push for the use of the Mosquito but the P-61 was considered the victor. In later tests conducted by the manufacturers, the two aircraft were actually found to be very similar in performance with no clear advantage for either aircraft.


WWII service

P-61 in support of D-Day, 1944.The 6th NFS based on Guadalcanal received their first P-61s in early June, 1944. The aircraft were quickly assembled and underwent flight testing as the pilots transitioned from the squadron's aging P-70s. The first operational P-61 mission occurred on June 25. On June 30, 1944, the P-61 scored its first kill when a Japanese G4M Betty bomber was shot down.

In England, the 422nd NFS finally received their first P-61s in late June, and began flying operational missions over England in mid-July. These aircraft arrived without the dorsal turrets so the squadrons' gunners were reassigned to another NFS that was to continue flying the P-70. The first P-61 engagement in the European Theatre occurred on July 15 when a P-61 piloted by Lt. Herman Ernst was directed to intercept a V-1 "Buzz Bomb". Diving from above and behind to match the V-1's 350 mph speed, the P-61's plastic rear cone imploded under the pressure and the attack was aborted. The tail cones would fail on several early P-61A models before this problem was corrected. On July 16, Lt. Ernst was again directed to attack a V-1 and, this time, was successful, giving the 422nd NFS and the European Theatre its first P-61 kill.

Throughout the summer of 1944, P-61s operating in the Pacific Theatre would see sporadic action against Japanese aircraft. Most missions ended with no enemy aircraft sighted, but when the enemy was detected they were often in groups, with the attack resulting in multiple kills for that pilot and radar operator, who would jointly receive credit for the kill. Since pilots and radar operators did not always fly as a team, the kills of the pilot and radar operator were often different. On some occasions a pilot with only one or two kills would fly with a radar operator who was already an "ace."

In early August 1944, the 422nd NFS transferred to Maupertus, France, and began meeting piloted German aircraft for the first time. A Bf 110 was shot down, and shortly afterwards, the squadron's commanding officer Lt. Colonel O. B. Johnson, his P-61 already damaged by flak, shot down a Fw 190. The 425th NFS scored its first kill shortly afterwards.

In October 1944, a P-61 of the 422nd NFS, now operating out of an abandoned Luftwaffe airfield in Florennes, Belgium, encountered a Me 163 attempting to land. The P-61 tried to intercept it but the rocket plane was traveling too fast. A week later, another P-61 spotted a Me 262, but was also unable to intercept the jet. On yet another occasion, a 422nd P-61 spotted a Me 410 Hornisse flying at tree top level but, as they dove on it, the "Hornet" sped away and the P-61 was unable to catch it. Contrary to popular stories, no P-61 ever engaged in combat with a German jet or any of the late war advanced Luftwaffe aircraft. Most Luftwaffe aircraft types encountered and destroyed were Ju 188s, Bf 110s, Fw 190s, Do 217s and He 111s, while P-61 losses were limited to numerous landing accidents, bad weather, friendly fire and flak. Apart from an attack on a Bf 110 that turned against them, there were no reports of a P-61 being damaged by a German aircraft, and apart from one accidentally shot down by a RAF Mosquito, none were confirmed to be destroyed in aerial combat.

The absence of turrets and gunners in most European theatre P-61s presented several unique challenges. The 422nd NFS kept its radar operator in the rear compartment. This meant the pilot had no visual contact with the R/O. As a result, several courageous pilots continued flying their critically damaged P-61s under the mistaken belief that their R/O was injured and unconscious, when in fact the R/O had already bailed out. The 425th NFS had a more novel solution. They moved the R/O to the former gunner's position behind the pilot. This gave the pilot an extra set of eyes up front, and moved the plane's center of gravity about 15 inches forward, changing the plane's flight characteristics from slightly nose up to slightly nose down. This improved the P-61's overall performance.

By December 1944, P-61s of the 422nd and 425th NFS were helping to repel the German offensive know as the "Battle of the Bulge," with two flying cover over the town of Bastogne. Pilots of the 422nd and 425th NFS switched their tactics from night fighting to daylight ground attack, strafing German supply lines and railroads. The P-61's four 20 mm cannons proved highly effective in destroying large numbers of German locomotives and trucks.

By spring 1945, German aircraft were rarely seen and most P-61 night kills were Ju 52s attempting to evacuate Nazi officers under the cover of darkness.

The 422nd NFS produced three ace pilots, while the 425th NFS claimed none. Lt. Cletus "Tommy" Ormsby of the 425th NFS was officially credited with three victories. Unfortunately Lt. Ormsby was killed by friendly fire moments after attacking a Ju 87 on the night of March 24, 1945. His radar operator escaped with serious injuries and was saved by German doctors.

In the Pacific Theater in 1945, P-61 squadrons struggled to find targets. One squadron succeeded in destroying a large number of Kawasaki Ki-48 Lily Japanese Army Air Force twin engined bombers, another shot down several G4M Bettys, while another pilot destroyed two Japanese Navy Nakajima J1N1 Irving twin engined fighters in one engagement, but most missions ended with no enemy planes sighted. Several Pacific Theater squadrons finished the war with no confirmed kills at all. The 550th could only claim a crippled B-29 Superfortress, shot down after the crew had bailed out, leaving the plane on autopilot.

It is widely believed that the last two enemy aircraft destroyed before the Japanese surrender were both downed by a P-61 of the 548th NFS. This aircraft, known as "Lady in the Dark" was piloted by Lt. Lee Kendall, gaining its victories over a Ki-43 on the night of August 14/15, 1945, and a Ki-44 on the next night. However, this is incorrect; these were the last aircraft detroyed by a USAAF fighter; the last Japanese aircraft destroyed in World War II were by a Convair B-32, "Hobo Queen Two," which destroyed two A6M Zeros on August 18, 1945.

On January 30, 1945 a lone P-61 performed a vital mission that was instrumental in the successful effort of the U.S. Rangers to free over 500, Japanese held, allied POW's at the Cabanatuan prison camp in the Philippines. As the Rangers crept up on the camp a P-61 swooped low and performed aerobatic maneuvers for several minutes. The distraction of the guards allowed the Rangers to position themselves, undetected, within striking range of the camp. The riveting story of the rescue and the role of the P-61 is told in the book Ghost Soldiers (by Hampton Sides) and in The Great Raid, a movie based upon the book.

In the Mediterranean Theatre, most night fighter squadrons transitioned from their aging Bristol Beaufighters into P-61s too late to achieve any kills in the "Black Widow."

[Lucky13]

Had the P-61 appeared in theater several months earlier, the situation would have likely been different. Though the plane proved itself very capable against the majority of German aircraft it encountered, it was clearly outclassed by the new aircraft arriving in the last months of WWII. It also lacked external fuel tanks that would have extended its range, and saved many doomed crews looking for a landing site in darkness and bad weather. External bomb loads would also have made the plane more adaptable to the ground attack role it soon took on in Europe. These problems were all addressed eventually, but too late to have the impact they might have had earlier in the war. The plane proved very capable against all Japanese aircraft it encountered, but saw too few of them to make a significant difference in the Pacific war effort.


She managed to shoot down 127 enemy aircraft alltogether.

"Betty": 26
"Frances": 1
"Irving": 2
"Frank": 2
"Dinah": 5
"Rufe": 3
"Tony": 5
"Floatplane?": 1
"Jake": 2
"Val": 1
"Tess": 6
"Sally": 2
"Nick": 1
"Zero": 5
"Helen": 1
"Lilly": 4
"Hamp": 1
"Tojo": 1
"Me-410": 2
"Ju-88": 14
"Ju-87": 5
"Ju-52": 9
"Ju-188": 10
"Bf-110": 7
"He-111": 4
"Fw-190": 3
"Do-217": 4
=========
127

Rumours also states that she shot a few V-1's down as well. Any thruth in that?

[amrit]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

And then I'll put it into a poll.

Thank you. I originally didn't start a poll because (a) I've never figured out how to do one and (b) wasn't sure which aircraft people would choose

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

How about the Halifax...

Has the Halifax had a raw deal, historically. I know that it often gets relegated to second place after the Lancaster. But I thought it had been treated quite well by writers, and crews.

Could you explain more?


Just a summary so far:
I've noticed some interesting choices here. Like everything else, we all like the "new and shiny", and when a newer and better aircraft appeared on the scene, the excellent service provided by the preceding one is often forgotten and/or denegrated. And it seems that some aircraft weren't necessarily bad, but the way that they were originally used wasn't always competent. The same aircraft in different air forces and/or theatres of operations show just how versatile aircraft could be right through the war (even after their "sell by date").

Cheers guys.

[Hop]

The situation deteriorated in May 1944 when the squadrons learned that several USAAF Generals believed the P-61 was too slow to effectively engage in combat with German fighters and medium bombers. The RAF shared this view, based on a single P-61 they had received in early May. The RAF championed switching to their De Havilland Mosquito Mk XVI. Several pilots in the 422nd NFS threatened to turn in their wings if they weren't permitted to fly the "Black Widow." At the end of May, the USAAF insisted on a competition between the Mosquito and the P-61 for operation in the European Theatre. RAF crews flew the Mosquito Mk XVI while crews from the 422nd NFS flew the P-61. In the end the USAAF determined that the P-61 had a slightly better rate of climb, and could turn tighter than the Mosquito. The RAF disputed these claims and continued to push for the use of the Mosquito but the P-61 was considered the victor. In later tests conducted by the manufacturers, the two aircraft were actually found to be very similar in performance with no clear advantage for either aircraft.

That's from Wikipedia, isn't it?

The truth is Mosquito production was low, and the RAF was desperate for all the Mossies it could get. It most certainly did not want the USAAF using them as night fighters as well. The RAF were "pushing" the USAAF to use the P-61, not to compete with them for scarce Mosquito deliveries.

From Mosquito by Bowyer:

By July 1944 supply problems to squadrons overseas were again acute. Indeed there was a distinct possibility that both Mosquito and Beaufighier squadrons might have to disband because production was insufficient to equate their needs. On 4 July 1944 the British Government informed the Americans that they still could not supply Mosquitoes to their Mediterranean based U.S. night fighter squadrons.
General Spaatz responded by requesting help with re-equipping just two British-based P-61 night fighter squadrons. It was pointed out to him that if Mosquito production permitted it his Mediterranean squadrons would already have received Mosquitoes to relieve pressure on Beaufighter availability because those aircraft were needed by British and Allied squadrons.
Not until the closing weeks of 1944 did the position ease sufficiently for an agreement to be made concerning the issue of forty Mosquito night fighters to the U.S.A.A.F. in Italy. No. 416 Squadron. Pisa based, during December received twelve Mosquito NF. XIXs and four Mk. 30s—MM746. MM765. MM769 and MM478. Another three of the latter MM821. MT462and MT464—joined the squadron during December. A monthly allocation was then set at twelve Mosquito NF. XIXs to come from M.A.A.F. slocks, and also four NF. 30s from home sources, although it quickly became apparent that all of the latter were needed to equip home-based RAF. squadrons.

[plan_D]

"Buffalo
P-36 Mohawk
A-20 Havoc/Boston
P-40
P-47
P-61 BlackWidow
Hurricane
Wellington
Me 109
Me 109G
Me163
Me110C
Do17
Do217
JU87
He111H
He177
Ba349
"Other late Italian fighters"
Lagg 5
Lagg 7
Vultee Vengeance"

The P-36 isn't just under-rated, it's forgotten. I gave a good account of the "Mohawk" some time ago. The A-20 Havoc squadrons in the Ninth Air Force had the best bombing rates of the whole IX Bomber Command; which is never mentioned. The P-40 was a great performer in Africa and Asia; which is rarely mentioned in the general public.

I don't mean to offend here but;

The P-47 is recognised but almost everyone as being the brute of the USAAF. We all know that it's GA abilities were second to none; and that at high altitude it would mix it up with the Luftwaffe on near or equal terms. The fall down of the Thunderbolt was its short range, and that's not under-rating it but stating fact.

The Hurricane is considered the saviour of Britain by most people; while the Spitfire is the best British fighter (which it was). I don't see it's under-rated; as after the BoB it was fast working its place into second-line duties in Europe. Just to say the Hurricane was the workhorse of the BoB - gives it the credit.

The Bf 109, all marks, are given the credit of the being the great opposition and counter-part to the Spitfire. The Bf 109 is the mark of the Luftwaffe fighter force; if anything the Fw 190 doesn't get enough credit ... but I wouldn't even say that's the truth.

The Me 163 didn't do anything, I'm quite confused as to what it's supposed to get credit for.

The Bf 110, I suppose, doesn't get credit for its night-fighting duties. But it's hardly under-rated because while, I guess, versaitile it was crap at everything else. It even struggled to mix it up with Blenheim IVs !

The Ju 87 and He 111 are both the recognised bombers of the Luftwaffe. Everyone knows what they are, and what they did.

The "Laggs" are actually La-5 and La-7, Lavochkin developed these aircraft on its own. The LaGG term was for the LaGG-1 and LaGG-3 which was developed by Lavochkin-Gorbunov-Goudkov.

Sorry, but I think some explanation is required as to why they're under-rated.

The one aircraft I believe to be under-rated is the C-46 "Commando". It was a superior aircraft to the C-47 "Skytrain" in almost every aspect. It did lifting duties in all the same theatres as the C-47; over the Hump, Rhine and Channel ... but no one remembers it.