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Thread: Which was the best night fighter?

  1. #211
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    Yes the 413/6mph speed was obtained with a striped plane. From what I can remember the antenna was removed, the exhaust shrouds were removed, and there was a decrease in the armament among other stuff.


  2. #212
    the old Sage Erich's Avatar
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    I do not think I need to reeat in this long thread my ideas about Ju 88G-6 comparison and the He 219A do I ? please do not ask again any of you........ the He 219 was not proven the Ju 88G-6 was. you can go to 12 oclock discussion and note that Jukka tired to call me out but was nearly butt kicked right off the forum as he tried to defend the Uhu to no avail. Some of you think I am alone in my ideas but that is flat out wrong.

    yes there were A-5's and A-7's issued to I./NJG 1, and the Ju 88G-6 on ops could bust out faster than 385mph. big deal, the Junkers had all the latest arms, radar details and rear warning radar plus another 1-2 crewmen the Uhu did not..........that should be enough to end this silliness
    Rip it up !

  3. #213
    Senior Member lesofprimus's Avatar
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    BTW Erich, whats the big secret???



  4. #214
    the old Sage Erich's Avatar
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    you are on top if it friend........

    ~~ the future book I just uncovered some very cool stuff on Kurt Welter and his stint NJGr 10, NJG 11. It has been buried in my files for over 10 years and while I was cleaning for putting up Christmas lights.........yeah we start real early .......... also found some things on Fritz Krause with NJGr 10 and NJG 11 I have had forever..... so yes it has been a well kept hidden........shhhhhh it's a secret !
    Rip it up !

  5. #215
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    Hi Al,

    >Yes the 413/6mph speed was obtained with a striped plane. From what I can remember the antenna was removed, the exhaust shrouds were removed, and there was a decrease in the armament among other stuff.

    According to the Heinkel documentation reproduced in Luftfahrt International issue 16, the top speed of the He 219A-2 without antenna and flame dampers (but otherwise fully equipped, including nacelle fuel tanks and Schräge Musik) was 605 km/h (376 mph) @ 6.3 km using Climb and Combat Power.

    The projected speed of the He 219B-2 with a DB603 with high-altitude supercharger for 13 km (42,650 ft) full throttle height was 660 km/h (410 mph, properly converted), which is close to the figure you quote. However, I don't know of any extreme-altitude DB 603 ever taking flight.

    I suspect the 413 or 416 mph figure you quote is probably rather an inaccurate conversion of the B-2 topspeed than the result of a stripped-down prototype test. However, that's just a suspicion that perhaps can be proven wrong.

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)

  6. #216
    the old Sage Erich's Avatar
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    and if true H.H. slower than a fully loaded Ju 88G-6 with all the goodies
    Rip it up !

  7. #217
    the old Sage Erich's Avatar
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    just a note in reply to some of the remarks given by me and another poster from a forum whom tried to pry me out by using my name ........

    M.H. I would consider an expert at least with in regards to vets who flew and maintained the He 219 in I./NJG 1

    hth

    Hello friends,

    As an 'airfield Venlo' and I.NJG 1 buff, I am not in a position to compare the quality and efficiency of the He 219 with the Ju 88 and Bf 110 variants. I have my doubts about the value of such debates because we all know that changing operational conditions during WW 2, must have had its impact on the suitability of nightfighter types. Seeburg-Lichtenstein tactics and Himmelbett orientated nightfighting was ideal for the (rather) short range Bf 110 though we all know that as soon the four engined RAF bombers arrived, the NJG's had a lot of difficulties to catch up with the Bf 110. When the Zahme Sau tactics were developed, types as the Ju 88 and He 219 had many more advantages above the Bf 110.

    Therefore I can only present some facts of the He 219 with the I.NJG 1:

    1) in an early stage of the He 219 design, it was exclusively constructed for the night fighter arm though other versions were planned as well
    2) in that light, the comments of Martin Drewes about the design of the He219 (I know: technical quality does not always catch up with designs ) makes sense: several wellknown nightfighter pilots like Streib and Lent were involved during the design process of the He 219. Martin Drewes' is clearly appreciating this influence
    3) the I.NJG 1 got their first He 219's (3 prototypes) in May 1943. Streib flew the first combat mission with a He 219 (still a prototype!), shot down 5 bombers and crashed the bird in a landing in Venlo. The remaining He 219's and (later) some newly delivered He 219's obtained a further 7 kills. The total for 1943 is therefore is 12.
    4) in 1944 the steadily growing number of He 219's in the I.NJG 1 made it possible to increase the operational range: as one of the frontline units, the I.NJG 1 were involved in Zahme Sau (Tame Boar) operations and for this the He 219 had the appropriate range (but not always the endurance because of many technical malfunctions). The I.NJG 1 was one of the few units capable of shooting down Mosquito's. The total of He 219 victories for 1944 was 122 (including 7 Mosquito's)
    5) The I.NJG 1 score for 1945 was just 10 victories

    Of the 638 victories of the I.NJG 1, 144 were obtained with the He 219, mostly in 1944 when the 'glory days of nightfighting in 1943' were over. My impression, made during the many years of historical research about the I.NJG 1, is that several advantages of the He 219 were severely hampered by productional problems and technical innovations which did not work properly. The GL/C meetings and Heinkel Archives do reveal many of such shortcommings but contain also many enthousiast reactions of I.NJG 1 flying personel. Many technical difficulties, described in the KTB I.NJG 1 and even more some diaries of pilots and Bordfunkers arouse mixed feelings: good fighting opportunities were blocked by early returns because of malfunctions, but on the other hand pilots were proud to have a plane that was able to intercept Mosquito's.

    Another, perhaps revealing question would be why the introduction of the He219 with the I.NJG 1 was much more smoothly then with the II.NJG 1, both units were used to fly the Bf 110. In that respect I do regret that we never will know the impressions of pilots like Werner Streib, Manfred Meurer or Heinz Strüning (they had nocturnal victories with the Bf110, Ju88 and He 219) thought of these aircraft. Even then, their subjective tastes could blur our opinions.
    Rip it up !

  8. #218
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    Hi Erich,

    >and if true H.H. slower than a fully loaded Ju 88G-6 with all the goodies

    I have to admit that I haven't seen good data on the Ju 88G-6 in full nightfighter trim.

    What I have is a data sheet on a Ju 88G-7 with Jumo 213E engines and streamlined Morgenstern nose. Due to the different engines, it seems reasonable to compare speeds at sea level: The Ju 88G-7(N) achieves 435 km/h at Climb & Combat Power, the He 219A-2 460 km/h (with antennae and flame dampers).

    While the DB603A may have had slightly more power than the Jumo 213E at sea level, the Heinkel He 219A-2 appears to be aerodynamically superior by a certain margin. If the Ju 88G-6 is fitted with external antennae (I'm not sure it was), this margin would increase.

    As the Ju 88G-6 appears to have been powered by Jumo 213A engines, at medium altitudes the DB603A would have given the He 219A-2 a slight superiority in available power over the Junkers, and in combination with the better aerodynamics, I'd expect the He 219A-2 to be the faster of the two aircraft at altitudes around 6 km.

    However, I'm not a nightfighter expert and relying on that single data sheet simply because I lack documents on earlier Ju 88 night fighters that have the required level of technical detail.

    (For reference: With antennae and flame dampers added, the top speed of the He 219A-2 dropped to 560 km/h (348 mph) @ 6.3 km.)

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)

  9. #219
    the old Sage Erich's Avatar
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    Ho-hun I think there were no G-7's in operation what you are speaking of is the Ju 88G-6 with the FuG 220d in a streamlined nose cone thus a streamlined form of aerials and the FuG 350N is also housed in the nose. External aerials of the FuG 220d and even the FuG 218 antler array still gave the sped as 385mph. due to weather conditions in a clear bright night skies and altitude the Ju 88G-6 could kick it up to 400mph and over
    Rip it up !

  10. #220
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    Hi Erich,

    >Ho-hun I think there were no G-7's in operation what you are speaking of is the Ju 88G-6 with the FuG 220d in a streamlined nose cone thus a streamlined form of aerials and the FuG 350N is also housed in the nose.

    I'm actually speaking of the G-7, as that's the one described by the data sheet (in the Waffenrevue Night Fighter issue). Quite possible that it didn't see service any more, the magazine only lists 4 prototypes (V112 to 115) which were converted from G-6 airframes.

    However, considering that the data sheet probably sums up the best knowledge of the Junkers engineers at the time, it's possible to arrive at an estimate of G-6 performance from that sheet and to use it for a Climb & Combat Power performance comparison to the He 219A-2.

    The higher speeds you give most likely result from the use of Special Emergency Power (with MW50 injection). In that regime, the Jumo 213A might have held the advantage over the DB 603A, but that is not a certain conclusion. (Detailed power data on the latter engine is a bit scarce.)

    Engineering documentation on the G-6 could probably tell us more, but unfortunately I've never seen anything like the G-7 sheet for earlier variants.

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)

  11. #221
    the old Sage Erich's Avatar
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    Like I said there was no G-7 variant or experimental test variant in my books. the G-7 was posted as an after war notation for the several Ju 88G-6's that had different radar sets. MW 50 gave a performance increase for 10-15 minutes for each engine so yes if used to blast away from the sudden mossie night fighter, yes that is possible if the crew were sharp

    can you post a sampling of the Waffenrevue article HH ?
    Rip it up !

  12. #222
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    Hi Erich,

    >the G-7 was posted as an after war notation for the several Ju 88G-6's that had different radar sets.

    Ah, being night-fighter ignorant, I wasn't aware it was considered an obscure designation. I have attached a scan showing the Junkers Dessau definition of the G-7 - not only the radar, but also the engines were (to be) different from the G-6.

    >MW 50 gave a performance increase for 10-15 minutes for each engine so yes if used to blast away from the sudden mossie night fighter, yes that is possible if the crew were sharp

    Roger that. As the Heinkel data I quoted is for the 30 min power setting that could be sustained without the use of MW50, I tried to find Ju 88G data achieved on the same 30 min power setting (considered Climb & Combat Power in German terminology).

    >can you post a sampling of the Waffenrevue article HH ?

    Roger, will do! However, I have to correct myself: It's Waffen-Arsenal, not Waffen Revue as I thought. Author of the magazine (which is all about German night fighters) is Manfred Griehl.

    Below the data sheet I am referring to (from Griehl's Waffen-Arsenal, "Nachtjäger über Deutschland 1940 - 1945"). It's more like a book than like a magazine, but it's externally in magazine format. Not sure how you'd call it - it's not even a softcover, just the kind of slightly stronger, glossy paper also used for magazine covers.

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails -nachj-ger_griehl_p40_s-jpg  

  13. #223
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    The "datasheet" may be projected data, on top in the Beschreibung (description) field you see "Kobü-Entwurf-Leistungsdaten"

    The He 219 A-2 should have been equipped with the altitude-optimized DB 603AA. The DB 603A did have 1580 or 1590 PS, the 603AA 1510 PS climb and combat power at sea level.

  14. #224
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    hello all, and erich, unfortunatly I shall ask again. meaning this in the best possible respect.

    no, i do not believe everything I hear, thank you very much. I took that data from 3 different websites and cross-checked. prehapes I don't have credibility, but I think I did a fair amout to check if it was a fluke. That said, thanks for telling me the stripped down version traveled at 413mph. I was doubtful, that was compareable to many single engined fighters of the day

    still, Eric said the pilots were proud to have an aircraft that could outrun a misq., out of curiousity,was this the stripped down A-6 version for misq. hunting? it traveled at 404mph, my impression being this wasn't a mainstream type, the A-5 and A-7 were

    arodynamicly, my very unprofessional eye says the he 219 was quite a bit better, but that doesn't count for much

    erich pointed out something interesting that the he 219 replaced me 110 units, which I'm pretty darn sure the he 219 is better then the me 110...(its that blasted ju-88 thats bugging me )

    I asked this earlier, but what altitudes did the lancaster cruise at? this is the altitude all german night fighters probably should be compared at. I know this is working off of the "ideal world" concept, but...

    another ideal world concept, what was the sortie/kill ratio of the ju-88 and he-219(probably mid-1944 ish)? that could really settle matters, and an incentive for erich, once done you never need argue this point again. really, if you got that, somebody would have a hard time going against it, (but matenence...why is it always so hard to pin down best anymore? just to many factors...) and I would like to meet this (guy)(I am editing your post out of protection of certain individuals) you seem to imply we have many similar qualities...(did he suffer any emotional breakdowns?wait..... on second thought, don't want to know)


    he 219 fans, I live, but a misq. hot on my tail...
    Last edited by Erich; 11-28-2007 at 12:36 AM.

  15. #225
    the old Sage Erich's Avatar
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    luftlover I need to correct you on some details, the first the posting above on the he 219 was not by me but from an expert on the he 219A that i was having a discussion of sorts but not really on another forum //

    I just got off some real late meetings which were pretty intense so want a clear head on the morrow that I may respond inteligently to your questions. one of them deals with the anti-Mossie Uhu the A-6, this was tested but never put into any prduction with field line units.

    more to come
    Rip it up !

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