The Night Witches

BombTaxi · 03-05-2005, 12:29 PM

Just as an aside to this conversation, I think Russian brutality is over-rated. While there was an undeniable attitude of the ends justifying the means in the Red Army, the Russians were shrewd planners and did not always throw lives away haphazardly. No army,no matter how large or how fearsomely disciplined, can survive the wastage the Russians are sometimes attributed with achieving.

Just my 0.02

NightHawk · 03-05-2005, 01:25 PM

Yes they had some great tactitions and leaders, But there were battles that lives were spent for nothing, Stalingrad is the best example(proberly 1 of the only ones).

BombTaxi · 03-05-2005, 01:34 PM

I would argue that Stalingrad was for from a waste of lives. The battle resulted in the encirclement and destruction of the enitre Sixth Panzerarmee and was an undobted turning point of fighting on the Eastern front.

Nonskimmer · 03-05-2005, 01:34 PM

Well we all know by now that from the very beginning of the war, Soviet training and military leadership were very poor. Stalin's purges had done their damage! They were fighting a desperate war with Germany, and had to relearn a lot of things the hard way. If not for the tremendous manpower at their disposal and the sheer vastness of the Soviet Union, I don't think they'd have stood much of a chance against the German steamroller. Manpower and geography gave them the time they needed.

KraziKanuK · 03-05-2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BombTaxi

I would argue that Stalingrad was for from a waste of lives. The battle resulted in the encirclement and destruction of the enitre Sixth Panzerarmee and was an undobted turning point of fighting on the Eastern front.

The Soviets could have given the Germans the city and still encircled them. It was only fought over because of the word Stalin(grad). imho naturally.

BombTaxi · 03-05-2005, 01:43 PM

Granted, there was an ideological side to the battle - but when wasnt there on the Eastern Front?!

I would have to say that had the city fallen (ie had the Germans crossed the river), the encirclement would have been much harder, if not impossible. Having the far bank under thier control made it a lot easier for the Russians to assemble thier forces

Udet · 03-07-2005, 09:24 PM

Remark:

When i did say some of the technical descriptions made in the opening post of this thread are correct, i was referring to the stall speed of the planes involved.

Of course the ancient biplane could not carry that much bombs. 23,000 tons of bombs dropped from those biplanes only? Flat and plain bullshit.
The bombload was very limited, just as the biplanes in service were.

Furthermore, the soviets have been trying to "prove" they kept extremely detailed records of all of their operations. I seriously doubt any detailed archives of the units of which the Night Witches were partof numbers of sorties flown and tonnage of bombs dropped were ever kept.

I have seen photos of the air-bases from which the night witches operated: the conditions were as primitive and basic as you can imagine.

Bomb-taxi: the brutality of the soviet regime of Stalin was very very real and measurable. You have to believe that. Brutality in the russian ranks followed the chain of command down to batallion levels.

Over-rated? Well, it might depend on what over-rated means to you!

Aleksandr Novikov, the VVS general credited with conducting a "profound reform" in the organization and performance of the soviet military air force has been accordingly overinflated.

That they improved a bit is true; that they produced some very capable planes is also true: yet something of course they are never going to admit is the fact thousands and thousands of new pilots got sent to the front lines only with a crash course as training.

Soviets mass produced their fighters along with pilots; do not forget the russians were fighting a brutal war in their own soil. Time was something the soviets did not have to create a masterfully trained breed of pilots.

Their losses in 1945 ALONE: +/- 11,000 combat planes lost to all causes speaks all by itself.

As someone said here, as late as in 1944, parachutes were not issued to most units in the VVS, with the exception of some ace pilots and other officers.

The night witches might have been very brave, but their losses were frightful and the material damage they inflicted was minimum. I stick to my original idea: their job was more of pushing the nerves of a few groups of German troops to the limits.