P-38 Lightening vs YAK 9

[Zarathos]

I'd heard something similar; individual initiative was not something that was taught to the Soviet pilots during the War. There are, of course, exceptions (Pokryshkin comes to mind) but, for the most part, Russian pilots were taught to fly & fight as a group, so breaking formation to pursue an enemy was frowned upon.

It changed somewhere in the mid-43, when Russians got situation under control and better planes. I-15/I-16 duo, ŁaGG-3, MiG-3 and Yak-1/Yak-7 (even early Yak-9) simply sucked and were inferior even to relative old German planes (like Bf 109E-4). fact, that before the war Stalin ordered execution of most good officers did not helped much.

In such conditions Russians needed someone who can start, shot and land if he is luck enough to survive the flight. Typical flight training before sending pilot to the fight was... 3 hours!

It changed when better planes entered service (La-5FN, Yak-9 M and later Yak-9U) and better equipement (radios). Tactics and formations changed because of this from rather non elastic three planes formation (leader with radio, wingmens with receivers) to the more elastic 2 planes formation (both with radio). Near the end of the war the flight hours before sending to the front raised and in the fighter divisions served mostly pilots who were either trained by the new rules or survived the first part of the war (which mean - they were very good). I would say that (excluding different fighting doctrines and tactics) Russian pilots were not worse then americans.

BTW - American pilots, in opinion of polish pilots while quite enthusiastic, were not good trained.

But, if at possible, can you explain more thoroughly WHY the commander of IAP – who saw that particular fight from the ground especially mentioned in the report that the P38 was much more manuverable at the horizontal level and did not have a problem to sit on the tail of YAK9?

In opinion of russian fighter pilots Yak-9 (especially verions T and D/DD) were too heavy and lacked the manoeuvrability of Yak-1. They were better armed and armored, but not as maneuvrable as one may think. Suffered both the horizontal (higher wing loading) and vertical (lower power/weight ratio in pre Yak-9U planes) maneuvrability.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Zarathos

I would say that (excluding different fighting doctrines and tactics) Russian pilots were not worse then americans.

BTW - American pilots, in opinion of polish pilots while quite enthusiastic, were not good trained.

In 1941 Soviet fighter were being downed at a very high ratio by German ones, and the US air arms were still at peace. Bt 1943 the Soviets had had two years to address that situation and the US air arms were just entering combat in Europe (very few US fighter units fought the Germans in 1942). I think 1943 might be the valid year for 'Polish pilots thought US ones enthusiastic but not well trained'. In 1944 US fighters were facing the bulk of the LW fighter force deep inside Germany and RAF(and Poles etc under their organization) were not there to watch, limited by their shorter legged fighters to areas of Occupied Europe areas where not much of the LW fighter force was operating anymore.

So, the green US units of 1943 by basic common sense were likely not as good as the most experienced and successful Soviet units of 1943. But how about later in the war when both had learned their lessons? Soviet and German loss stats show that even in 1944 Soviet fighters had a <1 exchange ratio v German fighters, with all the improved equipment, organization and trainng you correctly mentioned, apparently around 1:2 or poorer (a large % of Soviet fighter losses were 'failed to return' no other cause given so hard to say exactly). The US ratio by that time was considerably better. But, the conditions were not exactly the same, so debate can continue. Again though, the US and Soviet AF's fought one another directly, extensively, just 5 years after WWII, and that meeting did not appear to show parity between them either, not according again to the losses recorded by both sides, as in the LW/Soviet case, according to then-secret records since declassified by both.

Joe

[kool kitty89]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Joe,

He is right, the P-38 sucked!

So does the F-15, P-51, Hellcat, TA-152!

Didn't you know that? Lots of them all were shot down.

But the Ta 152 doesn't really work since iirc none was ever shot down, though they only made 11 kills as well. (going by memory)

I beleive Soren mentioned this on the Best Piston Engined Fighter Ever... thread.

[claidemore]

Zarathos,

I too have heard rumors of very low time pilots being sent into combat by the Soviets. That doesn't seem to line up with other reports.
Osoaviakhim,(sort of an air force cadet training program) had over 100,000 pilots trained even before the start of hostilities.
Shortage of pilots never seems to have been a problem for the Russians, while shortage of planes was. In fact they had cadres of experienced pilots waiting their turn at the factories to get new planes as they rolled off the assembly lines.
I've seen reports of anywhere from 300 to 500 hours for pilots before they were 'allowed' to join front line units.
Of course there was a lot of dis-organization in the first year of the war, and a 3 hour pilot could have been sent up, but I think it is much more likely that they had 3 hours on a particular type, ie Yak or Mig, rather than 3 hours total time. We often hear the similar numbers quoted for BoB pilots, with sources saying pilots were sent up in Spitfires with less than 10 hours flight time. It seems that the 10 hour number was for total time at OTU, (Operation Training Unit) on Harvards and/or Spitfires. The pilots would have had previous training on Tiger Moths, Magisters etc.

Soviet pilots considered the LaGGs and Yaks to be superior to Emil variants of the 109, in both horizontal and vertical maneuvers. They considered the F2/F4 109s to be better vertically compared to Soviet fighters, but similar horizontally. (they mistakenly thought they had better high alt performance when the captured F2 performed poorly at alt, but this was due to problems with that F2 plane). All the 109s had higher dive speeds and ceilings, and F and G models nearly always had a max speed advantage.

A big problem for the Soviet pilots was ridgid tactical doctrine. When their job was escort, they absolutely were forbidden to leave the bombers, they could only chase off attacking fighters. That put them in a continual defensive position, always being attacked first. This is the same situation that effectively 'tied up' the Luftwaffe during BoB, except much more rigourously enforced and continued throughout the course of the war.

Agree with your assessement of Yak 9 compared to Yak 1. Yak 1 was only replaced in production with the Yak 3. I believe the Yak 9 would still have had a turn advantage over 109G6 and FW190s. It's interesing that some Luftwaffe aces said the Yaks were the master of horizontal and vertical maneuver, while some Soviet Aces say the same thing about the 109. Gunther Rall said: "Yak and LaGG, very good."

[Sgt. Pappy]

Originally Posted by kot

Okay guys, thanks everybody for answering my questions. But, if at possible, can you explain more thoroughly WHY the commander of IAP – who saw that particular fight from the ground especially mentioned in the report that the P38 was much more manuverable at the horizontal level and did not have a problem to sit on the tail of YAK9?

If we compare two american planes P38 and P51 Mustang – which one would be better at the horizontal manuvure if the skill level of the pilots are the same?

If the level of the American pilots was greater than the Russian pilots – why did they not shut down all Russian planes?

If anything, the P-38 will turn faster than the P-51.. especially with flaps. Tighter, hell no. Faster, hell yea. The huge thrust and lower amount of drag produced for every lift co-efficient unit in the Fowler flaps (compared to the P-51s flaps) will likely allow the P-38 to retain more speed in the same given AoA...

There are a bunch of instances where P-38's outturned 109 aces.. particularly in the MTO where, early on I hear, P-38 pilots had better training than in the ETO.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Sgt. Pappy

If anything, the P-38 will turn faster than the P-51.. especially with flaps. Tighter, hell no. Faster, hell yea. The huge thrust and lower amount of drag produced for every lift co-efficient unit in the Fowler flaps (compared to the P-51s flaps) will likely allow the P-38 to retain more speed in the same given AoA...

There are a bunch of instances where P-38's outturned 109 aces.. particularly in the MTO where, early on I hear, P-38 pilots had better training than in the ETO.

P-38 pilots were flying combat missions against LW long before 8th AF (nearly a year before 55th FG fist mission) and in better climate (mid to low level) in North Africa and Italy for most missions... so experience was a more important factor in late 1943 timeframe.

In fact the 82nd FG had 200 destroyed in the air one year before the top Mustang Group, the 354th and well ahead of the 56th and 4thFG in P-47s.

Also in fact the 82nd FG scored more air to air in the P-38 than both the 20th and 55th FG combined for their entire P-38 record from fall 1943 through July 44 when they converted to Mustangs.

As to performance, the P-38L is the only version that was basically equal to 51B/C/D and then probably less capable than the H.

As to turn - this debate wanders all over the place. You could be the first to demonstrate that the two were flown in controlled environments in a controlled set of conditions to arrive at the conclusion. Could you point us to it?

I suspect the prime value of the P-38L manuevering flap was to Decrease speed, with plenty of power available, and thus tighten the turn, then use the excellent accleration of the twin engines to accelerate quickly.

The 51 flaps were not demonstrated to improve combat manuever performance in contrast because the cycling time on 10-20 degrees of flaps was longer than the 38L manuever flaps.. It would cut the radius by increasing drag but the 51 acceleration would be slower in comparison.

[claidemore]

There is a pdf, R&M 2381, which i believe I found somewhere on Mike Williams site, that has some comparisons of Spitfire and Blenheim dogfighting capabilities. Of course most of the technical stuff in the report is pure Greek to me, but I thought it might be of some use in looking at the P38 turn.

BTW, my limited understanding of aerodynamics tells me that turn radius is directly related to turn time, the faster you go, the bigger the radius, and it's the same for every plane, jumbo jet to Sopwith Camel. So according to that understanding, no plane can make a same diameter 'circle' faster than another, they have to turn tighter to turn faster. Am I wrong?

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by claidemore

There is a pdf, R&M 2381, which i believe I found somewhere on Mike Williams site, that has some comparisons of Spitfire and Blenheim dogfighting capabilities. Of course most of the technical stuff in the report is pure Greek to me, but I thought it might be of some use in looking at the P38 turn.

BTW, my limited understanding of aerodynamics tells me that turn radius is directly related to turn time, the faster you go, the bigger the radius, and it's the same for every plane, jumbo jet to Sopwith Camel. So according to that understanding, no plane can make a same diameter 'circle' faster than another, they have to turn tighter to turn faster. Am I wrong?

Partly, but probably not for the reasons you are thinking. The varius aircraft will run into turn turn performance issues for several reasons.

The Centripetal forces, normalized to primary aircraft axis 'G' forces, are funtion of (mV>>2/radius).

1. One aircraft or pilot may be able to sustain a higher G load (and still not 'run out of lift' as a consequence) at a Higher speed and bank angle for the same radius. To achieve this, he (and his aircraft) must be able to sustain the greater loads and also his aircraft must have a Clmax range great enough to successfully create enough lift at the higher angle of attack to offset gravity.

You can see why a 90 degree bank with sustained altitude is impossible - there is no airfoil whose lift component vector opposite gravity can 'pull' in opposite direction enough to keep the airplane at same altitude..

So, in this case the radius could be the same but the a/c and pilot combo is capable of 'closing' with higher velocity (by running the same diameter faster) on the lower G condition aircraft - or the radius is reduced AND the aircraft is faster - but pulling more G's, steepening the bank angle, staying within Angle of Attack for Clmax and having an airframe/pilot combo capable of the extra G's.

For the chasing aircraft who exceeds the Clmax, it stalls - for the chasing aircraft that can't handle the G's - he blacks out or the wings come off.

this is why use of G suits by Allied pilots were very important for similar performance a/c in turning manuevers or dive pull outs..

2.) aircraft that fall below the 'sustained level flight' Lift component (vector lift component opposite of Gravity) and/or thrust below combined drag components will descend in a spiral in that condition. The radius of the spiral will be greater than that of level flight preceeding that condition.

The a/c capable of maintaining the same bank angle and speed and level flight will have an advantage over the one that can't.

This is an area where a 109 flown by a skilled pilot at low altitude and speed will have an edge over the Mustang in this arena.

3.) as the bank angle increases, the incremental lift required to support level flight for that bank angle also raises induced drag to add to profile and parasite drag. If it is also still in a high G turn you will also get small drag increments from flight controls and you will probably have some elastic deformation of the wings which may change either local angle of attack or the pressure distribution over the wing.

The latter condition is allegedly the cause for the Fw 190 nasty stall chracteristics in a high G turn - when it occurred.

Condition 3 is the area least susceptible to precision theoretical calculations and the flight profile most uncertain with respect to stability and control parameters.

An airplane that 'hunts', oscillates or has other quirky characteristics is one the pilot has to baby the most at the most critical time.

I will ponder and see if I missed something important - I probably have.

[kool kitty89]

Some a/c also can maintain a higher speed in turns than others in the same radius turn. (though this would also mean a higher G load) I'm not great with aerodynamics either (particularly quantitative) but generally it depends on the airfoil's CL (and any devices that alter it; ie slats or flaps) together with the wing loading you can find the lift loading, then there's the lift:drag (dependent on wing plan-form and AR), and power loading. (the high AR of the P-38's wing along with excellent power loading and twin prop wash would give an advantage, particularly in a sustained turn, though the high wing loading was only be partially mitigated by the P-38's flaps; though the P-51 had a low lift airfoil by comparison)

There re a lot of variables to consider, but at a glance I'd say that (in most conditions) the P-38J/L would turn faster and tighter than the P-51D. On another comparison (which I have seen actual statistics for) the F4U-4 with good power loading and a high lift airfoil, could turn tighter (ie smaller radius) but not faster (ie slower turn rate) than the P-38L.

Also the fowler flaps on (most) P-38's were much more effective than other types of flaps.

Here:

[drgondog]

[quote=kool kitty89;339625]Some a/c also can maintain a higher speed in turns than others in the same radius turn. (though this would also mean a higher G load) I'm not great with aerodynamics either (particularly quantitative) but generally it depends on the airfoil's CL (and any devices that alter it; ie slats or flaps) together with the wing loading you can find the lift loading, then there's the lift:drag (dependent on wing plan-form and AR), and power loading. (the high AR of the P-38's wing along with excellent power loading and twin prop wash would give an advantage, particularly in a sustained turn, though the high wing loading was only be partially mitigated by the P-38's flaps; though the P-51 had a low lift airfoil by comparison)

There re a lot of variables to consider, but at a glance I'd say that (in most conditions) the P-38J/L would turn faster and tighter than the P-51D. On another comparison (which I have seen actual statistics for) the F4U-4 with good power loading and a high lift airfoil, could turn tighter (ie smaller radius) but not faster (ie slower turn rate) than the P-38L.

So, where would you enter these kinds of factors... (IF Wikipedia has anything near right - I am away from my library at the moment)

First question, the zero lift Drag Coefficient is stated as .0268 for the P-38L and .0163 for the 51D.. so the 38 has about 65% more drag than the 51D. Where are you going to account for this difference in both acceleration and high CLmax thresholds, where every little bit of drag is pulling the a/c below a sustainable 'same altitude' turn?

Second question, The A/R of the P-38L is much better at 8.26 to 5.85 but is the aspect ratio truly representative of actaul induced drag alleviation for the P-38? The wing area of the 51D is 'undisturbed' and has laminar flow characteriscis in context of pressure distribution whereas the P-38L has two large 'centerbody' disturbances buried in each wing. Any span wise flow characteristics in high G/high bank angel turns?

What is the relative stiffness of each wing and how does the lift distribution over the two airfoils, particularly for the 'high wing' with most lift, change the relative AoA to push the wing past CL max? Allegedly this is what the Germans discovered about the Fw 190 according to the reference posted in Lednicer's article. The 51 wing Looks Stiffer but ya never know.


Also the fowler flaps on (most) P-38's were much more effective than other types of flaps.

They were needed to get the landing speed to an acceptable level - and still above the 51D (and all other models) with conventional flaps

QUOTE]

My only point in mentioning this 'stuff' is that closely matched airframes need extensive testing under controlled conditions to see how close reality comes to the calculated results - and turn/roll tests are among the toughest to closely control.

[Sgt. Pappy]

Honestly, I can't prove the P-38's turning ability, and I can't prove that the the P-38s fought the 109s in a controlled environment. After all, every fight is different, though I remember reading somewhere that next to the P-40E, the P-38(F?) had the lowest stall speed of any US fighter. I hope someone knows which document I'm talking about

Perhaps the P-38 turned faster because it slowed down faster than a P-51 but a wing slatted-109 which slows down quickly as well (compared to a P-51 in particular) should outturn a P-38 but many accounts state that this is not true. That is not to say that the P-38 indefinitely outturns a 109, I just get the impression that it does since the accounts I've seen support a tight turning 38. Plus you've got those counter-rotating props which don't create torque at low speeds. Pretty helpful not having that other force acting against you.

However Galland did say the P-38 was easy meat, but many pilots had their opinions of other aircraft as well.

Oh and did the P-38L not roll out of factories with the ability to produce 1,725 hp per engine? AFAIK the USAAF then lowered max. rpm to allow a production of only 1,600 hp. I'm sure the power-to-weight ratio for the P-38L was better than the P-38H. Are those 443 mph figures I've seen for the 38L running at 54" HG with full 1,725 hp/engine fake?

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Sgt. Pappy

Honestly, I can't prove the P-38's turning ability, and I can't prove that the the P-38s fought the 109s in a controlled environment. After all, every fight is different, though I remember reading somewhere that next to the P-40E, the P-38(F?) had the lowest stall speed of any US fighter. I hope someone knows which document I'm talking about

The problem with so many discussions when discussing performance is that unless one cites the specifics behind fact it usually results in questions.. for example in stall speed are we talking about landing with 20 degrees of flaps or level flight/flaps up? What gross weight, what altitude?

I was cautious about citing Wkipedia for L/D because I could see that the L/D cited for both airplanes were at a weight below cited gross weight...etc, etc.

Combat encounters are written (usually) by the winners.. there are a lot more reports about a Mustang or Lighting turning inside and shooting down a (pick one) 109, 190, Zero, etc than vice versa. What they often fail to note are the conditions under which the manuevers were started and always hard to judge the skill of the oppoenent, or at what moment he knew he was being shot at

Perhaps the P-38 turned faster because it slowed down faster than a P-51 but a wing slatted-109 which slows down quickly as well (compared to a P-51 in particular) should outturn a P-38 but many accounts state that this is not true. That is not to say that the P-38 indefinitely outturns a 109, I just get the impression that it does since the accounts I've seen support a tight turning 38. Plus you've got those counter-rotating props which don't create torque at low speeds. Pretty helpful not having that other force acting against you.

On the other hand many pilots that flew a Mustang (or pick one) 109, 190, Zero, etc reported out turning the P-38? So, what do we know about the weights, the condition of the individual engine - was it close to overhaul point, fouled plugs, etc)

However Galland did say the P-38 was easy meat, but many pilots had their opinions of other aircraft as well.

Oh and did the P-38L not roll out of factories with the ability to produce 1,725 hp per engine? AFAIK the USAAF then lowered max. rpm to allow a production of only 1,600 hp. I'm sure the power-to-weight ratio for the P-38L was better than the P-38H. Are those 443 mph figures I've seen for the 38L running at 54" HG with full 1,725 hp/engine fake?

The factory figures are usually well documented including weights and conditions..

[Hunter368]

Well said Bill

[kool kitty89]

It is really complex, and the engines/booms would change the property of the wing.

You now more than I do about this.

But in anecdotal reports i seem to remember the P-38 being more agile in the horizontal than the p-51 and even had an edge over the 109. though I'm not sure what models these are comparing. (I think this was mid 1943)

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

It is really complex, and the engines/booms would change the property of the wing.

You now more than I do about this.

But in anecdotal reports i seem to remember the P-38 being more agile in the horizontal than the p-51 and even had an edge over the 109. though I'm not sure what models these are comparing. (I think this was mid 1943)

KK - I think one of the advantages (overall) in this forum is that facts are either force fed, or anedotal comments are frequently challenged making it difficult to use phrases like 'best', 'far superior' (pick your favorite) without some heavy qualifications and/or unimpeachable sources.

We all enter with a set of bias' and predjuice for a POV and most of us, myself specifically included, think a little more before opening mouth so to speak.

the P-38, in comparison with say the 109G2's should not have been more agile in the horizontal than the 109 at medium to low speeds.. just based on total drag, no boosted ailerons, no manuevering flaps, less Hp (relatively speaking) than the 109 - which also had slats to help out when it was pushed to stall threshold... Aircraft that are not exceptionally clean with nearly the same power loading and wing loading will tend to lose energy faster as they pull more G's - always a wildcard in a manuevering fight.

Theoretically this is why the early 47Cs and Ds should have stayed out of the low altitude, medium speed arena against the Fw 190 and Me 109.

When it lost energy it took awhile to get it back. At high altitudes the pig put on lipstick and became an altogether different beast with Hp and lift to burn in comparison with the previously nimble lightweights... in other words in its original design element for which it was planned - high altitude.

But I don't KNOW that personally but always open to the occsaional jewel that often surfaces here. I don't buy the thesis that the 38 was 'better' in horizontal than the 109 at low to medium altitudes where most of the 38 battles were fought in 42 and 43 in MTO... but I have been wrong before