P-38's performance: legend or myth?

[Sgt. Pappy]

Now, after playing Aces High II for almost 8 months, the bird seems like the complete opposite of what I've read. In the sources I read, the P-38L-5 could allegedly climb at up to 4,750 fpm under 5,000' for example.

In Aces High, the best it can manage with WEP is 4,200.

Also, I've heard that those Fowler flaps could help it outturn Mustangs with flaps. In the game, the P-38L will first be able to drop a notch at 250 IAS. When traveling above that speed, it won't drop any flaps. I was told that above 300IAS, the P-38L will not outturn many planes even if theyre going the same speed.

Even with the couter-rotating props stopping torque, effectively hanging me vertically in the air like a UFO, many planes still catch up to me. When they do, I just CAN'T shake 'em, no matter what I do - rolling scissors, flat scissors, dive, climb - you name it.

Is the P-38 really this smelly? And for the Aces High players, do you have any suggestions? I'm starting to feel that the P-38 is severely undermodeled in AT LEAST climb rate, and is quite undermodeled in turning circle. The Fowler to those flaps aren't doing anything.

[lesofprimus]

Its probably under-modeled.... With am experienced pilot, the P-38 was a killing machine....

However, many an experienced pilot died at the wheel of the Lightning... Not an easy bird to master...

[Sgt. Pappy]

O yes, a pain to learn to fly indeed. However, despite this, the plane should still outturn the Mustang... which it cannot do at any speed, whether the Stang is at the same speed or not.

I truly believe it's undermodeled b/c many of the Aces High II players have lost the ability to turn fight int the P-38J/L's.

Sextacular avatar btw.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

haha, you'll find that opinions of the P-38 are very firmly divided on this site, some will claim she is the greatest aircraft ever and could turn inside every other plane ever made without exception, not only that but she was the best aircraft in every role so it's a wonder any other aircraft were ever used at all! Others will argue she was expensive, hard to fly, hard to maintain, useless without turbos and freakin' freezing to fly in!

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

haha, you'll find that opinions of the P-38 are very firmly divided on this site, some will claim she is the greatest aircraft ever and could turn inside every other plane ever made without exception, not only that but she was the best aircraft in every role so it's a wonder any other aircraft were ever used at all! Others will argue she was expensive, hard to fly, hard to maintain, useless without turbos and freakin' freezing to fly in!

Yup that about sums it up.

[lesofprimus]

Others will argue she was expensive, hard to fly, hard to maintain, useless without turbos and freakin' freezing to fly in

The latter statement above covers the majority here at our illustrious site...

And thx for the "whoo hoo" on my avatar...

[Sgt. Pappy]

Ha ha, no problemo. Anyway, the P-38's controversial profile was a mix of BOTH of those biases. It could turn inside many planes AND was hard to fly. It was one of the greatest planes AND it was pricey as a result. Either way, I still think it got a little undermodeled in AH:II. O and I'd like to point out that the P-38L couldn't turn INSIDE a Spitfire, but it could 'stall ride' inside one. Even so, the P-38 is supposed to outturn the Stang in a flat turn w/ flaps.

Oh well, I'm learning new ways to energy fight in my Spitfire, so I'll take that up for a spin lol.

[Hop]

In the sources I read, the P-38L-5 could allegedly climb at up to 4,750 fpm under 5,000' for example.

In Aces High, the best it can manage with WEP is 4,200.

There are all sorts of figures floating about for the P-38. Most of the higher ones come from those who worked on the P-38, and are the claimed results of the manufacturer's own tests. The amount of info on these tests (atmospheric conditions, weights, corrections applied etc) is usually lacking.

The highest climb rate I've seen for a P-38 from an actually sourced test is the Wright Field test of a P-38J running at 70" wep on 150 octane fuel. That achieved 4020 ft/min at sea level, up from 3570 ft/min when running at 60" wep. That's at takeoff weight with full ammo and 416 gallons of fuel.

An earlier test, also at Wright Field, found 4,000 ft/min at combat weight with 300 gallons of fuel.

Aces High doesn't model 150 octane fuel for any allied aircraft, so unless the 4,200 ft/min figure for the P-38 in game is achieved at a lower weight, it's overmodelled.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I still however would not base a planes real performance and handling off of a computer game.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by Hop

There are all sorts of figures floating about for the P-38. Most of the higher ones come from those who worked on the P-38, and are the claimed results of the manufacturer's own tests. The amount of info on these tests (atmospheric conditions, weights, corrections applied etc) is usually lacking.

The highest climb rate I've seen for a P-38 from an actually sourced test is the Wright Field test of a P-38J running at 70" wep on 150 octane fuel. That achieved 4020 ft/min at sea level, up from 3570 ft/min when running at 60" wep. That's at takeoff weight with full ammo and 416 gallons of fuel.

An earlier test, also at Wright Field, found 4,000 ft/min at combat weight with 300 gallons of fuel.

Aces High doesn't model 150 octane fuel for any allied aircraft, so unless the 4,200 ft/min figure for the P-38 in game is achieved at a lower weight, it's overmodelled.

I think this statement is pretty close. The 8th did allow 70" boost from early summer '44 on for J model P-38's. The P-38L-5 got the 111/113 engines rated at 1725hp @ 64" but the POH was developed with he 89/91 engines (1600hp) used in the J and L-1 aircraft. It has not been clearly proved that the AAF officialy approved of this setting but in the field the throttle stops were often modified or removed check out the Planes and Pilots website for some info and graphs. The graphs are lockheed archives for internal use only and were released in the late '80's and NOT a sales tool. P-38: Der Gabelschwanz Teufel another good site is The P-38 Lightning This article by Wayne Cunningham, details things like drag comparisions, the usage of 150 octain and throttle stops. Flight tests and the 150 fuel tests and authorizations are at the same site WWII Aircraft Performance

If using the full 1725hp the higher climb rate should be accurate.

Lanc I think the P-38 was between those extreams and included a little of both. In the end I think it ranks up with the top 4 or so fighters of WW2 but since they all had different strengths that there can never be just 1 best.

Robin Olds on the P-38 "It was a great fighter, fun to fly. With a decent pilot you could whip anything, down low." On the Bf-109 "we could out turn them at the altitudes we flew." Above 30,000ft I belive according to reports the 109 had the edge. Robin was flying J models in August '44.

wmaxt

[Soren]

Oh god !

[Twitch]

My 1st question is why the hell would anyone on a flight sim or in real combat be stooging around at under 5000 feet and not expect to be smoked? Why use your plane's disadvantages and expect to survive. P-38s were energy fighters and attempting to use them in round round fights at low altitude is a recipe for disaster.

No one in combat was dropping flaps at any speed for any reason. Climbing is relative to attitude as well. Where the P-38 could climb rapidly at 150 MPH at a less steep angle than an opponent it didn't mean the opponent could close and pull lead either. Rate of climb is not consistant through all altitudes. As environment changes tuning comes into play to a point where a plane like the P-38, poor at low height, could out perform opponents at higher altitudes. A real P-38 could pull a climb that would ultimately force Japanese fighters to stall out before they could get lead. I know, I've discussed it with real P-38 pilots.

Certainly the P-38 had an advantage in head on firing passes with Japanese opponents. It could also make diving passes, fire pass out of range and translate its speed into a zoom climb that couldn't be matched. They did it all the time!

I spent years associated with the gaming industry and you need to realize that programers dial in performance that makes for good gameplay. They also have no lock on actual performance under all circimstances for every plane they model either. Most never consult actual aces to factor in real world performance for each particular plane. Usually their development time constraints relaitve to bringing a sim to market precludes exhaustive expermentation and research.

I've seen time and again unrealistically modeled planes like the Uber Hurricane in European Air War that could out perform all planes of its era to a point that was ridiculous! The reality is that combat flight sims aren't real, they're just fun.

[twoeagles]

I watched a wonderful display of P-38 "energy management" for the first
time back in the Miami Air Races (1973??) where Gary Levitz flew the P-38
against a field of Mustangs, a Corsair, Sea Fury, and P-63. At each
pylon turn, Gary would pull up rather steeply and go around the pylon far
above the rest of the racers, and then push the nose over and accelerate.
Halfway down the straight stretches he would catch up with the rest of the
aircraft, and then repeat that maneuver.

It takes little imagination to visualize a P-38 coming down into the enemy,
slashing and causing mayhem, sweeping upwards with that momentum,
reversing and pushing back down into the fray again. That was a very
graphic demonstration for me at a time I was on the road to becoming
a Naval Aviator, and much later spent no small amount of time teaching younger pilots energy management in vertical maneuvers.

[Hunter368]

As we have went over many times before talking about the P-38 (and other planes), is that an air force and plane should be measured by an average pilot flying it, not a expert with hundreds and hundreds of hours in it.

Winning air forces are built around an average pilot and what he could do with the plane he was given.

Example: -ME262 great plane, but too few, too late, newbies could not fly. Did not make a huge impact on the war. (it could of if produced a couple years before in good numbers with the pilots who could fly them)

-P-38 great plane in the hands of a rare ace but not nearly as good in the hands of a average pilot (who makes up the vast majority of any airforce).

Whether the P-38 could do these things (huge if) in the hands a but a few aces or not....does it matter really. How many guys could ever get the max out of it?? Only a handful, as Germany found out a handful of great pilots do not win a war. The P-38 was not a "great" plane in the hands of a average pilot, it was a good plane (nothing more) in the hands of the average pilot.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Robin Olds on the P-38 "It was a great fighter, fun to fly. With a decent pilot you could whip anything, down low." On the Bf-109 "we could out turn them at the altitudes we flew."

and there will be plenty more people that have nothing good to say about the aircraft..............

and i'm with Hunter RE the pilot skill, few pilots had the skill to use her.........