Page 10 of 17 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 LastLast
Results 136 to 150 of 244

P-39 D Aircobra vs. Me-109

Aviation Discuss P-39 D Aircobra vs. Me-109 in the World War II - Aviation forums; Originally Posted by Soren Davparlr I sincerely doubt that! No'one doubted the superior turn performance of the Zero, esp. not ...

  1. #136
    Senior Member davparlr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,780
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Soren View Post
    Davparlr I sincerely doubt that!



    No'one doubted the superior turn performance of the Zero, esp. not anyone who flew the P-40 6 P-39. The Flying Tigers used B&Z tactics to dispose of the Zero, they NEVER turn fought it, and that is made exceedingly clear!

    The Bf-109 F-4 should be able to out-turn the P-40, and so should the Spitfire.
    I think I poorly stated my point. I don't think that Wagner thought that the P-40 would out turn a Zero (I did say similar comment, not the same). I think very capable pilots associate their own ability with that of the aircraft. You can put a very capable pilot in the cockpit of a less performing aircraft and he can be very successful. In doing so, he will tend to think highly on his aircraft and have some disdain for the opposing aircraft. I suspect that Wagner was very good at energy managment in the P-40 and P-39 such that he was able to shoot down Zeros. In his mind I am sure he felt the P-40 and maybe the p-39 were superior to the Zero because they did allow him to use this energy management to his advantage. So when you quote a pilots opinion of their aircraft, you have to take into account the ability of the pilot himself, which may taint his opinion of his aircraft and the opposing aircraft.

  2. #137
    IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO FLYBOYJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    21,594
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Dave and JoeB - I think all pilots will form opinions based on their environment and experience. I have to agree with Soren in a turning comparison with a Bf 109 and P-40. With that said, did a P-40 ever out turn a 109 in combat? Possibly - and that's where pilot skill goes into the equation. And Dave - discussing Buzz Wagner - I think he was a notch above his peers, if not more....

    Not to go off subject here but you'll find many Soviet pilots who swear the MiG-15 was far superior to the F-86 and in some situations it was - at the same time these folks were never given a chance to fly an F-86....

  3. #138
    Senior Member drgondog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Scurry, Texas
    Posts
    6,605
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ View Post
    Dave and JoeB - I think all pilots will form opinions based on their environment and experience. I have to agree with Soren in a turning comparison with a Bf 109 and P-40. With that said, did a P-40 ever out turn a 109 in combat? Possibly - and that's where pilot skill goes into the equation. And Dave - discussing Buzz Wagner - I think he was a notch above his peers, if not more....

    Not to go off subject here but you'll find many Soviet pilots who swear the MiG-15 was far superior to the F-86 and in some situations it was - at the same time these folks were never given a chance to fly an F-86....
    General Momyer (33rd) was awarded four (of 8 total) scores over 109s. All in Africa, all in P40's including P40L. He felt the P-40 was superior to both the Mustang and the Me 109F at low altitude in the horizontal.

    Ditto for Hershel Green (325th) who scored 11 Me 109s, four in P-40FL over Italy, 3 in P-47 and 4 in P-51, out of his 18.

    It was conversations with both that I formed my own opinions that perhaps the P-40 was not so badly outclassed by the Me 109.

    Having said this we must remember we are talking about two pretty damn good fighter pilots.

    I hesitate to bring up Yeager, who did fly both the 86 and Mig 15 (in rigorous flight tests at Eglin and Edwards) - but he felt both were evenly matched with advantages one way or another, particularly climb rateangle going to MiG. So, One opinion from one who had a lot of time in both. Admittedly his MiG time was in 1953 time frame with the defection MiG.

    Not well publicized but he also whacked 3 or 4 MiG's while assigned as air attached to Pakistan in mid 50's while flying the 86 as an 'observer' in their unpleasant disourse..

  4. #139
    Senior Member renrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Montrose, Colorado
    Posts
    4,542
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    My source states that the P40 could out maneuver any other US Army fighter below 15000 feet and had a particularly good rate of roll, probably better at high speeds than all other US Army fighters.

  5. #140
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    809
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ View Post
    Not to go off subject here but you'll find many Soviet pilots who swear the MiG-15 was far superior to the F-86 and in some situations it was - at the same time these folks were never given a chance to fly an F-86....
    Well that's my favorite tangent Actually when you look at specific Soviet and US statements about particular strengths and weaknesses of the F-86 and MiG-15, they pretty much agree: F-86 turned better, dove better; MiG climbed better and had a higher ceiling. Speed advantage depended more on version and altitude but wasn't great either way. Overall I agree there was the usual tendency on each side for successful pilots to rate their plane better overall, but the US and Soviets didn't actually disagree which plane turned better in general: the F-86. And btw simple 'aerodynamics' of wingloading and thrust-weight said the MiG's sustained turn should have been better.

    Back on topic, the solid consensus on Soviet side AFAIK was the P-39 turned better than the Bf 109. I wouldn't rule out that an extensive modern day trial with all factors totally fair, might not overturn that conclusion, but it was what the Soviets thought, at least mostly, and I don't know of any such trial that disproves it.

    Joe

  6. #141
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Nice Photos Joeb.

  7. #142
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    5,849
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by drgondog View Post
    I hesitate to bring up Yeager, who did fly both the 86 and Mig 15 (in rigorous flight tests at Eglin and Edwards) - but he felt both were evenly matched with advantages one way or another, particularly climb rateangle going to MiG. So, One opinion from one who had a lot of time in both. Admittedly his MiG time was in 1953 time frame with the defection MiG.

    Not well publicized but he also whacked 3 or 4 MiG's while assigned as air attached to Pakistan in mid 50's while flying the 86 as an 'observer' in their unpleasant disourse..
    I would be very suprised if this was the case seeing as the only Migs the IAF had were Mig21's.

  8. #143
    Senior Member drgondog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Scurry, Texas
    Posts
    6,605
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Glider View Post
    I would be very suprised if this was the case seeing as the only Migs the IAF had were Mig21's.
    In 1956 timeframe? Not very likely but I will go check I may have the dates wrong

  9. #144
    Senior Member drgondog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Scurry, Texas
    Posts
    6,605
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by drgondog View Post
    In 1956 timeframe? Not very likely but I will go check I may have the dates wrong
    I stand corrected Glider it was in the 70's after VietNam for him and the IAF were flying MiG-21s, Pakistani AF flying 86's..I thought he had shot down MiG-15s but they were MiG-21J's apparently.

    The Pakistani Air Force was flyin 86's, Chinese built MiG 19's and F-104's.

    Yeager, according to the back channel, was flying flight lead in an F-86 wing when bounced by IAF MiG's which chose to fight in the horizontal.
    Last edited by drgondog; 01-24-2008 at 11:46 AM.

  10. #145
    IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO FLYBOYJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    21,594
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by drgondog View Post
    I stand corrected Glider it was in the 70's after VietNam for him and the IAF were flying MiG-21s, Pakistani AF flying 86's..
    I read a few articles from Pakistan about a few MiG-21 vs Saber dogfights. Short on details but it was stated the MiG-21s were dealt with accordingly.

  11. #146
    Senior Member drgondog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Scurry, Texas
    Posts
    6,605
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ View Post
    I read a few articles from Pakistan about a few MiG-21 vs Saber dogfights. Short on details but it was stated the MiG-21s were dealt with accordingly.
    IIRC it was about 3:1 Pakistani over IAF.

  12. #147
    IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO FLYBOYJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    21,594
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by drgondog View Post
    IIRC it was about 3:1 Pakistani over IAF.
    Pretty interesting. They also did well with the MiG-19. Chinese built with a MB seat and armed with Sidewinders. In the 1980s I read it was the 2nd most cost effective fighter to operated behind the F-16!


  13. #148
    Banned Soren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    6,624
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by davparlr View Post
    Soren, I was just watching an article on the Bf-109 on the History Channel and they were interviewing Gunther Rall on the weaknesses of the Bf-109 and he addressed the slats. He said that, under high speed maneuvering, the slats could extend due to gravity, causing a stall. This seems different than jamming. Have you heard of this before?
    Hehe, the slats only extend when the AoA increases, so this is probably what Rall was refering to. Rall is often qouted on the slats by certain people, but he hardly understood them, his comments being disputed by the other 109 pilots. Modern day 109 pilots have questioned his remarks about the slats many times, knowing the slats operate flawlessly on the currently restored F & G models, and thus are curious as to what made the Emil so different (Rall refers to the Emil about the G-load deployment issue). However fact is that Rall's near death experience in the Emil made him very wary about the slats, and so he never tried turning that hard in a 109 again, but he didn't need to either having perfected his own B&Z tactics as a result of this incident in the Emil.

    Rall in the end downed 275 Allied a/c utilizing his own B&Z tactics, very effective.

  14. #149
    Senior Member davparlr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,780
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ View Post
    And Dave - discussing Buzz Wagner - I think he was a notch above his peers, if not more....
    That was exactly my point. Soren had said " Marseilles wasn't very impressed with their turn performance though, esp. seeig thats how he shot them down..". My point was that Marseilles was also a notch above his peers and that comments by such talented pilots on aircraft performance can be tainted by their own exceptional capability, i.e. they can make lesser performing aircraft successful, therefore they think the plane is better than it actually is.

  15. #150
    Senior Member fly boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    862
    Country
    United States
    Post Thanks / Like

    wow

    go p-39 flown by russins man that sweet cus i herd the p-39 sucked with americans so this a surpies

Page 10 of 17 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198