P-40 vs. Hurricane

[Udet]

Lancaster Kicks Ass:

Why leave the response to Plan_D? Can´t you produce your own thoughts to attempt proving someone wrong?

You sounded like my twin sisters, when we were little children, running to tell my father I just pulled their hair.


Ok, right. Plan_D just issued a juicy reply to Starfish´s posting. Some good points there.

Noteworthy to mention is the fact Mr. Starfish´s posting pointed several true and goos points: Great Britain got defeated everywhere but in the air during the BoB of 1940.

France, Norway, Greece, Crete, North Africa. A significant record of defeats.

Sure the Germans did experience local setbacks during some of such campaings and battles: Narvik in Norway, Tobruk in North Africa (although a big australian friend of mine claims it was Australians and not the Brits, who first held the German onslaught, even though they will be crushed in the end), but overall, the Germans proved superior on the battlefield to the British.

German paratroopers in fact took terrible losses during Merkur (Crete), although most were shot while still in parachutes or killed when their Ju52´s were hit by AA fire. Was it valid? War is lawless, and you will do everything to gut the foe; it is not honest to claim being a better soldier when you were killing men that were still not capable of showing what kind of substance was it they were made of.

However, the number of them Fallschirmjager who touched the ground and got to their guns were fiercer (some of the fiercest and fearsome warriors) and most skilled than the defenders and smashed them, forcing them to evacuate the place.

Wolfram von Richtofen´s VIII Fliegerkorps took full revenge on the Royal Navy: his stukas sent 3 cruisers and 6 destroyers to the bottom; not to forget are the 3 battleships which got badly mauled (HMS Warspite knocked out for many months), one carrier, plus 5 cruisers and 5 destroyers damaged, totalizing more than 2,000 British sailors killed and many hundreds more wounded.


Afria: Generalfeldmarschall Rommel commanded only an army corps in North Africa and inflicted a stunning defeat to the British Army in the region.


Finally, Wolfram von Richtofen...what a god damn brilliant and ruthless air force commander.

[plan_D]

In 1940, Britain defeated Italy soundly in the campaign of Eygpt. While being out-numbered 6:1 as previously mentioned by me. Britain also held Somalia against superior numbers of Italian troops.

The minor force of British troops on the Continent could not, honestly, be expected to destroy a complete force of the enemy. 350,000 vs. 3.3 million?

It was largely the Australians who held Tobruk until relieved by British forces. No history denies that. However, Tobruk wasn't crushed until 1942 after the British and Commonwealth forces had pushed the Axis forces back through Benghazi. Benghazi was taken three times by the 8th Army, once off the Italians and twice off the combined Axis.

The Fallschirm were excellent soliders, no one denies that. The fault of their tremendous loss was the fault of High Command, not the solider themself. That said, as always, the losses were up to 50% against a force of ill-equipped troops, with little AA and no air cover. Think of the losses caused on the same airborne troops had the forces on Crete had the right amount of AA cover and, at least, a squadron of Hurricanes to intercept those Ju-52s.

The Fallschirm didn't force the evacuation. The Fallschirmjager still suffered heavily at the hands of the Allied forces on Crete when they hit the ground. The fact of the matter is, airborne troops cannot hold against a concentrated and determined counter-attack ...which the Allied forces gave them. The Allied troops were ordered to evacuate on the entrance of the second invasion fleet from Greece ...that is after the Royal Navy wiped out the first.

Naval warfare doesn't go on losses or kills, it goes on control. And the Royal Navy held a tight grip on the Med throughout the entirety of the war. No navy or air force displaced them ...Royal Navy victory throughout.

No, Rommel commanded all Axis forces in Africa. That includes three Italian armoured divisions plus several Italian infantry divisions. The Italians also provided the vast majority of the motorised transport in North Africa.

And what the hell has this got to do with a P-40 Vs. Hurricane? Go start another thread if you want to reply to this.

[102first_hussars]

Back to the original topic, If you compare the two aircrafts Earliest major air battles, Such as the Pacific AirWar and the Battle of Britain.

After Pearl Harbour The USAAF was sending rookie pilots in their P-40's to fight the well seasoned Japanese Pilots and their Zero's,

For some time the U.S. Pilots were getting their asses handed to them,

Where as with the Hurricane there was alot of Pilots who came straight out flight school, straight to the Hurricane and straight towards a formation of German Bombers and alot of them manged to do quite a bit of damage to the Luftwaffe.

And my point is that Alot of nugget Hurricane Pilots did quite well with their plane whereas alot of the nugget P-40 pilots were wasted on their first tangle with the enemy,

So all of that is a result of good, Manouverability, Speed, Simplicity and maintainability and pure ruggedness. The Hurricane had all of that,
P40 had some of that but didnt have speed and agility and sure as hell wasnt simple and easy to maintain like the Hurricane was.

[plan_D]

I believe you are forgetting the AVG who flew solely the P-40. Over China and Burma they achieved a healthy kill:loss ratio that was in their favour. Although I don't believe the AVG ever encountered the Zeke, they did encounter the Oscar which was more agile than the Zeke.

The USAAF didn't suffer a dramatic loss as one might assume from reading the; "America was stunned ..." - "The U.S reeled from the Japanese blows ..." etc. etc.

As has been shown previously on this site, the F4F's reputation has been greatly scarred by the misinformation from the general overviews of the PTO. While not wrong, they do not paint the correct picture for the fighters of the USN and USAAF.

I'm sure someone else could provide solid statistics, but I'm pretty sure the P-40 gave out just as good as it got in the Pacific, if not better.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

For some time the U.S. Pilots were getting their asses handed to them

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

alot of the nugget P-40 pilots were wasted on their first tangle with the enemy,

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!! The Japanese with the Zero and Oscar barley had a 2 to 1 kill ratio over P-39s and P-40s during the peak of their deployment (Go the the thread rising sun warbirds). I did an extensive research of USAAF kills and losses from Jan 42 through November 42. It showed that the USAAF held it's own over New Guinea and in some cases even the lackluster P-39 and P-400 was starting to score against the Zero and Oscar. The 39th FS had several aces emerge from flying P-39s. The USAAF did take losses during this period (off the top of my head about 150 aircraft for about 180 aircraft destroyed) but no way close to the image of propaganda shown here...

Here's the topic link: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/vie...322&highlight=

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but the actual combat loss records paints a very different picture - do the research!

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

P40 had some of that but didnt have speed and agility and sure as hell wasnt simple and easy to maintain like the Hurricane was.

In what way are you making that claim? Both had high performance V 12 engines that required similar maintenance. In repairing battle damage, fabric surfaces can be easier to repair but they are not as resilient as sheet metal, on the other hand, sheet metal repairs can be extensive depending where the damage is located.

Your making this statement to a mechanic who's done both - you're going to have to be more specific than that!!

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i know we're no longer talking about this but i think i can be forgiven for not letting this one slip..........

Originally Posted by Udet

Lancaster Kicks Ass:

Why leave the response to Plan_D? Can´t you produce your own thoughts to attempt proving someone wrong?

You sounded like my twin sisters, when we were little children, running to tell my father I just pulled their hair.

firstly, i had to go, i didn't have any time to make any more of a responce than that, i just wanted to give you an indication you were wrong

secondly, i will be the first to admit that pD is far more knowledgable on this subject than i am, it makes sence to let him answer, and he himself said he was honoured we left it to him to answer, he enjoys fighting with people like you

and lastly, i am only a boy of 15, i did not insult you or degrade you too seriously, yet at the first sign that someone dissaproves of you you lower yourself to the level or personal insults, doesn't that also seem like something small children would do? i could tell you what i think of you as i'm sure you could of me, but i'm not gonna beacause unlike you it would seem, i'm above that............

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

i know we're no longer talking about this but i think i can be forgiven for not letting this one slip..........

firstly, i had to go, i didn't have any time to make any more of a responce than that, i just wanted to give you an indication you were wrong

secondly, i will be the first to admit that pD is far more knowledgable on this subject than i am, it makes sence to let him answer, and he himself said he was honoured we left it to him to answer, he enjoys fighting with people like you

and lastly, i am only a boy of 15, i did not insult you or degrade you too seriously, yet at the first sign that someone dissaproves of you you lower yourself to the level or personal insults, doesn't that also seem like something small children would do? i could tell you what i think of you as i'm sure you could of me, but i'm not gonna beacause unlike you it would seem, i'm above that............

Well said pD. That was another reason I left it to him.

[lesofprimus]

The one thing u have to remember when considering the early Pacific combat is that the Japanese planes were made out of wood and had no armor of self sealing fuel tanks...

Not exactly the hardest thing to set on fire....

A stray .50 cal bullet could and did light them on fire...

The P-40 did hold its own in the PTO....

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

The one thing u have to remember when considering the early Pacific combat is that the Japanese planes were made out of wood and had no armor of self sealing fuel tanks...

Not exactly the hardest thing to set on fire....

A stray .50 cal bullet could and did light them on fire...

The P-40 did hold its own in the PTO....

What Japanese plane was made out of wood?

Certainly there were some parts of various planes made out of wood, particularly at the end of the war to save materials. The Ki-84-II comes straight to mind. However, I don't think that there were any Japanese types that were made from wood in the same was as, say, the Mosquito or the Ta-152 was.

[102first_hussars]

"In what way are you making that claim? Both had high performance V 12 engines that required similar maintenance. In repairing battle damage, fabric surfaces can be easier to repair but they are not as resilient as sheet metal, on the other hand, sheet metal repairs can be extensive depending where the damage is located.

Your making this statement to a mechanic who's done both - you're going to have to be more specific than that!!"
_________________
"IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

Thats true but the Hurricane was obviously a much lighter aircraft with the same engine, its turning rate was much quicker and sharper than the P-40,
Though the P-40 was heavily armored the Zeke was also heavily armed,

Now another thing I forgot to add on my last post was the P-40 had a tendancy to turn off the side of the runway because the nose was so high off the ground, the pilot had a bitch of a time seeing the runway, whereas the Hurri didnt have that problem,

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

Now another thing I forgot to add on my last post was the P-40 had a tendancy to turn off the side of the runway because the nose was so high off the ground, the pilot had a bitch of a time seeing the runway, whereas the Hurri didnt have that problem,

That's common on any tail dragger - I could take you up in a Piper Super Cub and you have the same problem and I guarantee you the hurricane had the same problem. Watch old war documentaries - when you see WW2 fighters taxi they turn side-to-side so you could see over the nose. On take off You compensate for that my using peripheral vision, once the tail rises it's no longer a problem - tail dragger pilot 101.

Hod you you think FW-190D pilots flew????

[evangilder]

I have sat in the cockpit of the Hurricane. I did not fly it, but I did sit in it. You cannot see over the nose during taxi. The nose issue would be the same on both. Also, the Hurricane and P-40 did not have the same engine. The P-40 had the Allison engine, the Hurricane had the Merlin. They were both V-12s, but they were not the same engine.

The empty weight difference is not that great, 5,500 lbs for the Hurricane, 6,000 for the P-40. Max takeoff weight was considerably higher with the P-40 though, about 7,300 lbs versus about 11,500 lbs.

[Udet]

Lancaster Kicks Ass:

Well, I am 20 year old creature myself eh.

I did not throw any insults at you, much less degraded you at all.

[102first_hussars]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

That's common on any tail dragger - I could take you up in a Piper Super Cub and you have the same problem and I guarantee you the hurricane had the same problem. Watch old war documentaries - when you see WW2 fighters taxi they turn side-to-side so you could see over the nose. On take off You compensate for that my using peripheral vision, once the tail rises it's no longer a problem - tail dragger pilot 101.

Hod you you think FW-190D pilots flew????

Anyway Regardless the Hurri was in my opinion a better aircraft than the Warhawk

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Udet you said to me

Why leave the response to Plan_D? Can´t you produce your own thoughts to attempt proving someone wrong?

You sounded like my twin sisters, when we were little children, running to tell my father I just pulled their hair

sounds degrading to me........