P-51 Mustang or F4U Corsair

[wmaxt]

One thing about that chart, the P-38 and the P-51 are at METO power settings while the F4U-4 is at 70" or WEP. I think the F4U-1 is at METO to but I'm not sure.

wmaxt

[davparlr]

These are all excellent aircraft and any pilot would feel comfortable taking one into combat. If we did an engineering test by running experienced WWII pilots through various senerios in each aircraft and measured the results, I suspect the following would occur. The best pilot would be the best in each plane, average pilots would be average in each plane, the worst pilot would be the worst in each plane. Each would find the weakness and strength and use this to his best advantage. When asked to create a perfect aircraft, the consensus would have some performance characteristic of each plane. And, when asked which one was the best, he would reply "the one I flew in the war". The final objective analysis would probably fall within probability of error.

Also, I don't think anybody will change their mind. Me, although I like them all, I still perfer the P-51. Many of my previous opinions, however, have changed.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by davparlr

These are all excellent aircraft and any pilot would feel comfortable taking one into combat. If we did an engineering test by running experienced WWII pilots through various senerios in each aircraft and measured the results, I suspect the following would occur. The best pilot would be the best in each plane, average pilots would be average in each plane, the worst pilot would be the worst in each plane. Each would find the weakness and strength and use this to his best advantage. When asked to create a perfect aircraft, the consensus would have some performance characteristic of each plane. And, when asked which one was the best, he would reply "the one I flew in the war". The final objective analysis would probably fall within probability of error.

Also, I don't think anybody will change their mind. Me, although I like them all, I still perfer the P-51. Many of my previous opinions, however, have changed.

I think your pretty much right there, if a pilot feels comfortable and has success in an aircraft that will probably be his favorite plane from that time on.

wmaxt

[Soren]

Sorry but I just can't let such a comment float around without responding...

Originally Posted by wmaxt

The Spitfire.com Fw-190D9 data is, just like the P-38J data, production aircraft right off the line, and tested by the Germans with an eye to improving performance, so any comparisons should be valid. The testers made a point of stating gap seal problems as well as lack of expected power output affecting performance.

wmaxt, again you completely ignore the important parts....

The Fw190 D-9 Nr. 210001 and 210002 were both fitted with under-performing engines, severely impacting their performance in the tests.

- The first problem with all flight trials of Wk.-Nr. 001 & 002 is that they were done with the initial batch of production engines, which have well documented problems with supercharger performance.

Despite these engine troubles the 002 still managed to reach 595km/h at SL using MW-50, without the ETC-504 and with a puttied and polished surface. And in a later test where a gap between the engine and wing was covered with rubber, the 002 managed 608km/h at SL using MW50.

Fw-190 D-9 Nr. 001 however, with the standard factory surface finish, reached the same speeds as 002. This is something which had FW puzzled, cause why didn't the higher quality surface finish of Nr. 002 show in better performance ? So they were keen to investigate that issue further, and the conclusion was that with engines performing to their published figures and with good factory finish a serial production Dora-9 will reach the previously calculated performance figures - ~625 Km/h at SL using MW50.

And it turns out they were right, cause the next batch of aircraft to leave the production line performed much better...

Running at Start u. Notleistung (1,750PS@3,250rpm), Fw-190 D-9 Nr. 210006 reached 550 km/h at SL and climbed at 17 m/s (3,329 ft/min), and this is with a standard factory finish as-well as with a ETC-504 attached. - The same as in the chart I posted earlier;
Climb rate at Start u. Notleistung w/ETC-504 at a weight of 4,270 kg = 17.3 m/s:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9339/d9climb8yo.jpg

Compared to 002 which had a puttied and polished surface, and no ETC-504 attached, 006 reached the same speeds but with a standard factory surface finish, a ETC-504 attached and with no main wheel doors (And even at a higher weight as-well) - just because the engine now ran properly.

Detailed information on Fw-190 D-9 Wk.-Nr.210006:

General information.

Airplane model: Fw 190 D-9 Wk. –Nr.210006
Aerodynamic Wing Area: F = 18,3 m2
Wing span: b = 31,32 ft (10,46 m)
Wing aspect ratio: R = 6,0
Engine: Jumo 213 A (B-4 fuel)
Engine power permissible for 30 min: 3250 rpm
Engine power for continuous operation: 3000 rpm
Air Intake: external scoop without filter
Exhaust system: plain blow back stacks
Pitot tube installation: Bruhn 5 d
Propeller: Heine, 3 blades, compensating core, D = 3,5m, t/D = 11,5%

Aircraft condition:
Standard version with ETC 504 (without wheel cover).

Engine: without gap gasket
Surface: standard, primed and sprayed
Armament: 2 mg 131 in the fuselage with 475 rounds and 2 mg 151 in the wing with 250 rounds.
Antennas: for Fu G 16 “ Fu G 25 “ equipment and directional loop cover.
Take-off weight: 9,590 lbs (G = 4350kg) (after n.J.190.213-045 v,31.7.45)
Fuel contents: 141 gallons (640 liter), of which 25 gallons (115 liter) is in the supplementary fuselage tank. 10,229 lbs. (4640 kg), if flown with 300 liter drop tank.

Note also that Fw-190 D-9 Wk.-Nr. 210001 with a metal gap seal at the engine in the wing/fuselage transition area(Not rubber or in every gap like on 002), running at Kampfleistung(1,590PS@3,000rpm), reaches the same speed as Wk.-Nr. 210002 running at Start u. Notleistung! Thats a speed increase of 18 km/h (11mph), with a gap seal, still with the underperforming engine! (Not bad!) With a proper working engine that would mean a top speed at SL of around 612-615 km/h using MW50.

Also remember metal wasn't in shortage like rubber was, so there's no reason to believe this modification wasn't implemented on future aircraft.

And lastly, although I know manufacturing quality had decreased in most factories producing the FW fighters by 44-45(Some of FW's own factories were still turning out good quality a/c), I do not believe it had decreased to an extent where the Fw-190A-5 from 43 at 1,800PS@2,700rpm would be running at a 27 km/h higher speed at SL than the Dora-9 running at 1,750PS@3,250rpm - since not even the BMW801F of the A-9 could produce the same amount of thrust at 2,000PS@2,700rpm as the Jumo-213A could at 1,750PS@3,250rpm, not to mention that the Anton series a/c produce alot more drag than the Dora series ! Overall manufacturing quality simply couldn't have fallen that much.

At 2,000PS@2,700rpm the Fw-190A-9 had a top speed at SL of 590 km/h (366 mph), btw.

[syscom3]

The mission profile also counts for a lot.

If the fighter is escorting or intercepting bombers at 30,000 then its high altitude performance is what counts.

If its down on the deck, then high altitude performance is irrelevent.

[Twitch]

And those 25-30,000 foot planes could hold their own on the deck too. There are many accounts of Thunderbolts and Mustangs scrambling around with 109s and 190s at tree-top level and emerging victorious.

The P-47D could hit 363 MPH and the P-51D 395 MPH at 5,000 feet and under. Not slow by any means.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by Soren

Sorry but I just can't let such a comment float around without responding...

Actually you made my points for me, I mentioned the underperforming engines as well as the ~3300ft/min climb which was always my point, even the P-38F climb was more than 3600ft/min at its maximum.

You are assuming engine output was corrected. According to the two German sources including Dietmar Hermann as published in his book "Focke-Wulf Fw-190 "Long Nose"" used in the Spitfireperformance page the MW-50 fuel was not available in quantity and the engine performance was not at the expected level. An interim solution of increasing output to 1,900hp was implemented as well as conversion of many MW-50 systems to water/methanol only, called the "oldenberg system".

Again your assuming gap seals etc were corrected - there is no evidence that it was.

My contention all along is that the P-38 belongs with the top fighters including the Fw-190, Spitfire, and F4U-4. I still believe this is true, its performance gives little if anything to the others (except maybe top speed which is between 420mph and 443mph dep. on source). I also accept the fact that the K version would be the best the P-38 could do without a major design effort and that would also mean specialization for a specific performance goal. With jets arriving a redesign of the P-38 would be unreasonable.

wmaxt

[Soren]

wmaxt, either you only read the first couple of lines in a post and ignore the rest, or you desperately need glasses ! Which one is it ?

Please note the following:

Fw-190 D-9 Wk.-Nr.210001:

Condition: Factory standard, w/ main wheel doors.

Achieved speed at Start u. Notleistung: 550 km/h at SL (341 mph)

Later on 001 achieved an even higher speed at SL using only Kampfleistung (1590PS@3,000rpm), because of a metal gap seal in the wing/fuselage transition area.

Fw-190 D-9 Wk.-Nr.210002:

Condition: Surface primed with a high gloss polish, w/ main wheel doors.

Achieved speed at Start u. Notleistung: 555 km/h at SL (345 mph)

Fw-190 D-9 Wk.-Nr.210006:

Condition: Factory standard, w/ ETC-504 and without main wheel doors.

Achieved speeds at Start u. Notleistung: 552 km/h at SL (342 mph)

So you see I aint assuming anything, engine performance DID improve on later production models !

Also 006 achieved its climb rate of 3,329 ft/min at a weight of 4,350 kg, carrying a ETC-504 rack and with a standard surface finish, running at only Start u. Notleistung - 1750PS@3,250rpm. (Not at maximum power!)

Oh and what do you think the letters "MW" in the designation "MW-50" stands for ? "Methanole Wasser" !!!! There is no "special MW-50 fuel" !

And guess what, the performance figures of 540 km/h at 1.5ata & 585 km/h at 1.76 ata at SL were all ESTIMATED before the MW-50 system even entered testing in October 1944 ! Infact it was estimated before September that year even ! Do I need to remind you that 002 reached 608 km/h at SL in October 24. 1944 ?

Check this, from January 3. 1945 - 621 km/h at SL !:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1...gleich32yi.jpg

And the climb chart I posted earlier is from March 23. 1945, btw !

Are you beginning to get the picture now ?


And about the P-38's performance; I'm not even gonna go there anymore, if you ask me you've already been proven wrong in that discussion more than once wmaxt, so there's no need starting all over again.

[wmaxt]

Soren, I think your high on some really good stuff.

My opinion is that you are extremely biased, and your proof many times is just your personal disbelief of the data. You are very skillful in a debate mode, to the point that you goaded me into using the Hoof turn data, which is invalid in this context. That attitude does not mean you are correct.

I disagree with you on both the P-38 performance and the relevance of the production tests of the Fw-190D9 (which was last tested on 6 March '45 and at that time neither the engine, special fuel for the MW-50 system, or effective gap seals were corrected or available even at the flight test sites). You are welcome to your beliefs.

I'm not going to respond to you on this subject again.

wmaxt

[Soren]

Me biased ?! Says you ?! Well excuse me Mr.P-38 guy, but I haven't really seen you praise anything but your precious P-38, ever.. But unlike you wmaxt, I'm not going to start blindly accusing you of anything, cause I consider myself a bit more respectful than such. (Although I must admit my respect towards you has faded since your last post)

But what can I say, its human nature to spew out accusations like that when in a tough spot. So I guess your excused wmaxt..

[R988]

A note on the P-38, I was recently reading a pilot account of a Med theatre P-38 pilot who was regularly flying 6-7hour missions over Italy from North Africa. Funny thing was when he went to Britain to pick up a new aircraft and chatted with the P-38 pilots over there, he was suprised to find out they only flew 4 hour missions because they flew at a faster speed or less economical cruise settings, I forget which. I assume they flew long missions in the pacific as well.
Amazing really, 7 hours in a single seater.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by R988

A note on the P-38, I was recently reading a pilot account of a Med theatre P-38 pilot who was regularly flying 6-7hour missions over Italy from North Africa. Funny thing was when he went to Britain to pick up a new aircraft and chatted with the P-38 pilots over there, he was suprised to find out they only flew 4 hour missions because they flew at a faster speed or less economical cruise settings, I forget which. I assume they flew long missions in the pacific as well.
Amazing really, 7 hours in a single seater.

The Smithsonian P-38 site sets the mission that was the longest was a mission by P-38s that was 2,300mi, plus combat at the target, that could be a ~10hr mission.

In the ETO there were two conditions that limited range for the P-38s: 1. only 165gal drop tanks were used (up to 300gal tanks were used everywhere else). 2. Cruise procedures were high rpm, ~2300rpm and low MAP about 28", while everybody else used ~1,800rpm and 32"-34" MAP which gave better fuel economy and more cockpit heat (not much but it helped).

wmaxt

[syscom3]

"....In early 1945, Lightning pilots of the 12th Fighter Squadron, 18th Fighter Group, flew a mission that lasted 10 ½ hours and covered more than 3,220 km (2,000 miles). In August, P-38 pilots established the world's long-distance record for a World War II combat fighter when they flew from the Philippines to the Netherlands East Indies, a distance of 3,703 km (2,300 miles)....."

This had to be the mission to Singapore from bases in the PI.

Heres an interesting account of another similar mission.

http://timurileng.blogspot.com/2006_...g_archive.html

"Friday, March 17, 2006
Mission over Singapore

........

A Lightning photo reconnaissance aircraft was sent to Singapore Harbor in July 1945 to take photographs. However, the aircraft never returned. A second aircraft was sent out in early August but returned with combat damage and crashed on our runway at Palawan, killing the pilot. Some of the film was saved from the fire and it revealed 125 Japanese fighters on the four concrete runways at Singapore.

We were, at that time, attacking all Japanese shipping and facilities within our 850-900 mile range. Singapore had been too far to reach and had remained almost untouched through the war. The Australians, however, had landed at Labuan, North Borneo, in June and repaired the runway at that location. Using Labuan's runway as a staging base, several fighter sweeps were flown to Singapore from Palawan by flights of P-38s from the 347th Fighter Group, of which our 68th Fighter Squadron was part. The 68th had not been involved in these previous strikes.........

Two cruisers and a number of other ships along with 125 Japanese fighters were defending the most heavily fortified harbor in the world. The 68th was to send eight P-38s and pick up 16 Royal Australian Air Force de Havilland Mosquitos at Labuan en route to the target. Our pilots questioned that only eight Lightnings were scheduled into a target with so many enemy fighters ... and some of the squadron members had already celebrated the end of the war!

........

We arose several hours before daylight on 13 August to brief. Our target was the ships. The intelligence officer believed we would be intercepted by the 125 Japanese fighters. The two cruisers and other Naval vessels would be covering the shipping in the harbor.

We took off and I circled so all planes could get into formation. Then we were on course in the dark. We had no navigational aids in our P-38s so we just flew a compass heading and figured the time and distance based upon our cruising speed. This worked fine in clear weather but was dangerous when rain and clouds prevented us from seeing anything. When we were out on a maximum range mission, there was no fuel reserve and no alternative runway.

In daylight, we reached Labuan. The runway looked smooth hut had water puddles here and there. It was soft and several of our P-38s got stuck in the mud. It took a lot of power for them to get unstuck hut finally we were parked for refueling. We were carrying two 165-gal wing tanks on each P-38.

During refueling, I briefed our pilots as well as the Australians. Our call sign was Scamper. I was Scamper Red Leader. Steve Stevenson was my wingman was Red 2. Joe Salonimer was Red 3 and Johnny Massart was Red 4.

The second P-38 flight was Scamper White with "Chink" Taylor, Jack Childers, Charley Smith, and "Tib" Tibbets. Taylor was flight lead and was the alternate group leader if something happened to me. Four flights of four RAAF Mosquitos would follow as the second squadron. This made a total of 24 aircraft for the mission.

We would start engines at 0625 and take off at 0630. It was 850 miles to Singapore Harbor. To conserve fuel, we would use maximum range cruise control as taught to us by Charles Lindbergh. Without his expert advice, we couldn't have reached this long-range target. We would climb and cruise throttle way back. Our climb power would be 1900-rpm and 32-in of manifold pressure. For long-range causing, we would use 1600-rpm and 30-in of manifold pressure.

........

Pilots returned to their aircraft at about 0620. A quick look at our planes and we were ready to go. It was start engine time and the crew chief folded the ladder up into the nacelle. At 0625, I hand signaled engine start up and all propellers began turning.

At 0630, I released the brakes and started to roll - using 3000-rpm and 60in MP for takeoff. As soon as I was off the ground, I retracted the gear and held my left hand on the throttles as the P-38 quickly reached 125-mph - its single engine control speed. At 125-mph, I knew 1 had enough rudder control to continue takeoff on one engine should the other quit.

......

Flying at 10,000-ft, the weather became progressively worse and at about 400-mi out the 16 Mosquitos were forced to turn back. Light rain became very heavy rain. We had to fly in very close formation to stay together. I figured the weather might be in our favor this time. If the weather was low and it was raining over the target area, maybe it would keep the Jap fighters on the ground.

As we came in toward Singapore, we were flying at 100-ft above the ocean in light rain. About 2-mi from the target, a small ship appeared dead ahead. During the flight, we had used one wing tank at a time and dropped the empty to reduce drag. I was now using my second tank and it was nearly empty. I dropped it on the deck of the ship with an estimated 15-gal of fuel still in it. The second flight made an S-turn and strafed the deck and set the ship on fire. We didn't circle hut kept on course.

We went down to 50-ft above the water then in order to keep the ocean in sight and hoped the ship hadn't had time to reveal our arrival. A short time later, still flying 50-ft altitude, we entered the target area.

We came out of the clouds. Less than a mile ahead, between a small island on the left and another on the right, were two ships being loaded with drums of gasoline from some dozen loading barges tied alongside. Men were rolling drums across the docks and walking around.

No one saw or heard us - P-38s were very quiet on approach due to the turbo superchargers. Surprise, however, was the only thing in our favor, for otherwise we had two problems: We were still in close formation just out of the clouds and we were also at slow cruising speed.

Throttles forwards, Steve and I stayed together to attack the biggest ship - a freighter of about 10,000-tons. We were lined up right down the length of the ship and Steve opened fire at about 1500-ft out. The smaller ship, a 5000-ton merchant vessel, was anchored to the right and slightly closer to us at 90-degrees to the big ship and about 100-ft away from it, facing it.

I saw a gunner running for a gun at the bow of the merchant ship. Steve fired into the deck and hold of the freighter and set it on fire. I was almost too far in but tried a quick right turn to line up on the gunner on the merchant ship. I nearly ran into the vessel and the water beyond it, but my bullets caught the gunner. I went below the level of the decks and between the two ships as I flew out.

About that time everybody was shooting at us. The dreaded words, "Red 2, I'm hit," came over the radio. It was my wingman, Steve, and I knew from the sound of his voice that he himself was hit. He was flying to my left and above me at about 100ft of altitude.

I called and said, "Red 2, turn toward home and I'll join you." He didn't turn so I figured he was confused and didn't know the homeward heading. I called him again and told him I would join up and take him home. He never answered. Both engines were running fine but Steve was slumped over the controls. His plane was losing altitude and in a steep left turn. His plane exploded as the wingtip touched the water.

The other pilots were strafing some barges behind me. I strafed two barges that were traveling away from the burning ships. The 10,000-ton freighter was burning fiercely along the entire length of the deck. Steve's bullets had splattered the 55gal drums of gasoline on the deck and in the hold. Our tracer bullets had set everything on fire. The 5000-ton merchant ship had a small fire forward and I counted eleven barges burning.

I signaled join up by rocking my wings and six P-38s joined up with me. We had been flying in a small clear area in clouds over the target area. I set the throttles for long-range climb and we climbed into the clouds.

At 10,000-ft we flew into heavy clouds once more. We had about a ten-minute fuel reserve. It was two hours before the weather started getting better. 1 thought I was one tough guy, but I shed some tears on the trip home. This had been Steve's 50th mission. I was glad it was a volunteer mission, yet, if I had scheduled the pilots as usual, Steve would have stayed safely at home base. I thought about the war being near its end and about my mother. It was her birthday. I'd been away from "home, sweet home" for three years now, except for two days on what turned out to be a shortened leave.

As we approached the coast of Borneo, the weather was looking better and by the time we neared Labuan, the weather was clear ahead. At the field, our crew chiefs noticed that one plane was missing and each worried that it might be his plane and pilot.

...........

The next morning, 14 August 1945, we completed the mission by flying back home to Palawan. When we had landed, we had logged the 13th Air Force's last combat mission of WWII. Total flying time was eleven hours and 35 minutes. We'd traveled 2300 miles."

[lesofprimus]

Nice story....

[syscom3]

I liked the part where the Mosquito's had too turn back because they couldnt handle the weather.

Imagine that...... single pilot fighters that were better than twin manned light bombers