P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's

[DAVIDICUS]

I guess so. Going up against 5 to 1 odds let alone 25 to 1 odds sounds suicidal when your target is the bombers and you can't simultaneously play offense against the fighters while you're targeting the bombers (which pose a danger via their defensive armament as well).

The only thing going for you is your ability to cut and run (assuming the allied fighters prefer to maintain a defensive posture by staying with the bomber formation). Of course, they could always afford to chase after each retreating German fighter with 10 or 15 planes!

[plan_D]

Which they didn't. Roaming escort was always the best.

[Erich]

think about 1945 and the 8th AF Mustangs roaming down to Munich and or Prague and then having the US 15th AF Mustangs overlapping that territory as well along up to Berlin. the Luftwaffe had no hope of escape, plus maruading 9th AF P-47 pilots tired of ground attack were just waiting to get a chance at an enemy fighter ........... yes terrible odds indeed !

[lesofprimus]

Fuel fuel fuel....... It was all about that in early 1945... There'd be 25 Fw-190D's sitting on the tarmac, and fuel enough for 4 of them to intercept an incoming bomber stream......

I have read in a couple different books that the odds were upwards of 20-1 in certain circumstances, and even higher on the worst of days...

[mosquitoman]

I never realised the odds were stacked against the Luftwaffe that much, considering it now they performed miracles doing the damage that they actually did

[the lancaster kicks ass]

well that's down to the skill of some of their pilots.......

[Soren]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

well that's down to the skill of some of their pilots.......

And the quality of their equipment....

By 44-45 the average pilot quality wasnt nearly as good as what it had been.

[wmaxt]

8th Air Force escort procedures.
These numbers are a little complicated, for instance a 1,000 bomber raid may have 1,500 fighters total to cover it, that cover was staggered.

Outbound to the border of Germany 250 planes Spitfire/P-47 mix
German Border to target 500 fighters P-51/P-38 mix as the time progressed into late 44 it would be P-51/P-47 mix
Return leg same as above.
Inbound similar to outbound.

All Aircraft in the ETO. 8th & 9th Air Forces
Aircraft available to the AAF as follows:
P-38s - 600-700 from Jan 44 to June 44 maintaining +/- 250 from December to the end. Note the numbers of P-38s vrs. their impact.
P-47s - 1,000 by Oct 43, 2,000 by April '44 and mantaining +/- 2,000 to the end.
P-51s - +/- 1,000 from April '44 to September '44 and +/- 1,500 till the end of the war.

Total Fighters Available in the ETO went like this:
1.200 Oct '43, 2,500 Jan '44, 3,000 Feb '44, 4,000 in October '44, 4.600 in April '45.

These numbers are rounded and represent aircraft available on a monthly basis. The source is the AAF Statisticle Digest.

These numbers Don't include British aircraft.

wmaxt

[Udet]

I have learned that the generally accepted view of the airwarfare over Europe from mid 1944 until the end of the war is unaccurate; it of course is the view of the victors.

The "non-stop" slaughter of "ill-trained" teenies flying "inferior" craft sent to a certain, unavoidable and completely predictable death. You know, that is a tale. A distortion.

Now, before those over-sensitive creatures burst out in anger (you know who you are), it is important to tell that yes, losses for the Luftwaffe were very high, horrible in some days and specific battles.

What I have found is that the majority of those new pilots in the jagdwaffe in 1944 could find their "out" when engaging the hordes of either P-51s and P-47s.

Finding your "out" in view of such overwhelming numerical inferiority implies having both skill and fully capable fighters.

Had the allied tale of the "absolute supremacy" of the P-51 over "all" German fighters been true, then no less than 95% percent of the new Luftwaffe pilots of 1944/ 45 would have died.

The whole German territory was easily within the reach of virtually every USAAF fighter group by late 1944 and 1945. This is significant, and certainly helps shattering the allied version of an "undisputed supremacy" of the allied air forces over the German pilots and planes. Why was it that they did not shoot them all down?

Hundreds and hundreds of German pilots found their "outs".

Losses for new German pilots of 1944/ 45 were around 38-44%. A very HIGH loss rate; still it was not even the majority of them.

I have also had the chance of seeing records of many young pilots who died in 1944/ 45, and hundreds of them claimed 2, 3 or 4 enemy fighters before their deaths. Confirming kills was kind of disrupted by late 1944 and 1945, but that does not mean, at all, their claims were false.

While the P-51s were not marvels, they were not "sitting ducks" either, and the fact of having returned to base, claim a kill, implied everything but "being ill-trained".

What many would address as "luck" I´d call it skill, sound morale, top aircraft and yes, guts.

I am completely convinced that on the event of a numerically equal engagement between P-51 or P-47s against any German fighter of the late war, could have as an outcome, a butchery of USAAF guys.

[P38 Pilot]

I belive that the P51 could beat the me109 easily but have more of a challenge with the focke wulf. We have too remember that there were a lot of skilled German pilots that flew Fokce Wulfs.

[Erich]

it's all in accordance with pilot skill..............period. The Fw A did not have the high altitiude perfomance of late mark Bf 109's till the Dora model became available in small numbers.

the point is there were more P-51 than German a/c. wmax your figure for P-47's includes 9th AF Jugs whom were not necessairly involved with bomber escort duties.

not until the month of February 45 did the US have the supremeacy of flying P-51's to the eastern suburbs of the Reich due to the fact that 3/4rs of the Reich defence had been moved to the Ost front.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Udet

I am completely convinced that on the event of a numerically equal engagement between P-51 or P-47s against any German fighter of the late war, could have as an outcome, a butchery of USAAF guys.

In what context? Are you assuming the Luftwaffe skill level was maintained as many of the experten killed years earlier are brought back into the picture? Are we to eliminate the fact that allied bombers are not to included into this thought process and this is a statement based on a fighter-to-fighter scenario?

[Sal Monella]

On these huge bombing raids, where did the bombers take off from?

[Glider]

UDET. It is an accepted rule of thumb that when losses reach 20% a unit looses its efficiency. Your figure of around 40% for new pilots plus the inevitable drain on the remaining experienced leaders would confirm that the German fighter units would not be very effective. That is probably at least as important as the number of planes shot down.

The Allied forces were trying to escort their bombers, if the German planes are not effective then they are not going to stop the mission and to the allied view, this would mean that the allies control the air. I am not aware of any allied mission that failed to reach its target. My guess is that this may have happened a few times but not many. This implies to me that the German fighter forces had lost their edge.

In fighter vs fighter the inexperienced pilot is at a massive disadvantage whatever plane he is in either German of Allied. However the chances of a German pilot getting the all important first 6-12 missions under his belt would be slim. A new allied pilot would have a better chance of gaining this experience because they have control of the air and their units more effective.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by P38 Pilot

I belive that the P51 could beat the me109 easily but have more of a challenge with the focke wulf. We have too remember that there were a lot of skilled German pilots that flew Fokce Wulfs.

And a lot of that comes down to the numerical superiority. The P-51D was very overated. I will agree that the P-51D was better then the Bf-109 however the Bf-109G or K would give a P-51D a good run for its money and with an experienced pilot beat him.