P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Originally Posted by Sal Monella

On these huge bombing raids, where did the bombers take off from?

England, mainly the East coast........

[wmaxt]

If you read my post more closely you will see where I made the distinction between escort and all, including the 9th Air Force aircraft, available aircraft.

I agree the P-51 was overated however it was still compettive and even had a couple of advantages (as did the Fw-190/Bf-109) with a skilled pilot was deadly. Pilot skill would be the determining factor.

On pilot skill - by mid '44 German Training before introduction to combat was ~ 110hrs and a few hours ground instruction. AAF training was 350/400hrs, 50+ ground instruction/tactics directly concerning the P-51 in combat and another 20hrs in the squadron prior to combat.
The majority of expert German pilots were killed in the first half of 1944. The skill level of the average German pilot fell rapidly and there was no possible way to recover in the time/conditions available.

wmaxt

[Erich]

wmaxt I see no distinction at all of 9th AF Jugs.

also the majority of Luftw. skilled aces were not killed in early 1944. you forget the Ost front aces were hardly touched till 45, and they must be considered. what was lost was experienced leaders of Staffeln and gruppen the main-point was Unternehmen Bodenplatte on 1-1-45 a total waste of human resources. Ture the Luftw. was pouned by may of 44 but still dealt many death blows, the Sturmgruppen had not been in-force til 7-7-44 and the overall tactics were then replaced with an angrif von hinten

[Soren]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

And a lot of that comes down to the numerical superiority. The P-51D was very overated. I will agree that the P-51D was better then the Bf-109 however the Bf-109G or K would give a P-51D a good run for its money and with an experienced pilot beat him.

The Bf-109 was a MUCH better pure fighter than the P-51.

The P-51 was out-runned, out-turned, out-rolled and out-climbed by the 109K series, and everything but out-runned by the G series.

With a properly trained pilot in each a/c, the Bf-109 would make mince meat of a P-51 in a dogfight !

However all this being said, the P-51 wasnt "Designed" as a pure fighter like the 109, but as an escort-fighter, at which role it operated nicely.

So the P-51 was by no means a failure, just not the wonder-plane some people thought/think it was.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by "Soren

The Bf-109 was a MUCH better pure fighter than the P-51.

The P-51 was out-runned, out-turned, out-rolled and out-climbed by the 109K series, and everything but out-runned by the G series.

With a properly trained pilot in each a/c, the Bf-109 would make mince meat of a P-51 in a dogfight !

However all this being said, the P-51 wasnt "Designed" as a pure fighter like the 109, but as an escort-fighter, at which role it operated nicely.

So the P-51 was by no means a failure, just not the wonder-plane some people thought/think it was.

The P-51 was designed as a replacement for the P-40 even down to the requirements for the use of the same engine and prop. The merlin and extra fuel came later and worked out exceptionaly well.

I agree it was no wonder plane but it was every bit as good as the Bf-109 and with a better pilot compettitive with the Fw-190. This was proven many times in combat.

wmaxt

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by Erich

wmaxt I see no distinction at all of 9th AF Jugs.

also the majority of Luftw. skilled aces were not killed in early 1944. you forget the Ost front aces were hardly touched till 45, and they must be considered. what was lost was experienced leaders of Staffeln and gruppen the main-point was Unternehmen Bodenplatte on 1-1-45 a total waste of human resources. Ture the Luftw. was pouned by may of 44 but still dealt many death blows, the Sturmgruppen had not been in-force til 7-7-44 and the overall tactics were then replaced with an angrif von hinten

Erich, The first two paragraphs were on escort duties and the rest was on aircraft availability - I thought it was clear. I have gone back and eddited the post to clarify it - sorry for the confusion.

wmaxt

[Udet]

Wmaxt:

That is incorrect.

The "majority" of Luftwaffe experten did not get killed in action. That is another one of the allied tales.

Grab the list of the rough 115 German pilots who shot down 100 or more enemy planes, and you will discover the majority of them in fact finished the war. It can be an illustrative sample.

Also, many of the experten who died during the war, did not so as consequence of enemy action. (i.e. Mölders, Marseille, Lent and a long etc)

I sometimes wonder what the definition of "majority" is in allied depositions.

Finally, and as Erich correctly put it, by late 1944 and during 1945, USAAF losses were everything but "minimum".

As I have mentioned in other threads, it would be interesting to ask the few USAAF guys who survived several Sturmgruppe attacks if German pilots were "ill-trained" by late 1944.

There were cases of German pilots flying Fw 190 A-8s with the extra-armor for sturm attacks that shot down Mustangs.

Now, if a modified A-8, with some 250 kgs of extra-armor could chew a Mustang, think of a "standard" A-8 or of the AS Bf 109s tuned for super high altitude combat, or of the Fw 190 D.


To an important extent they (USAAF and RAF) won due to overwhelming numerical superioriy and not precisely for having had "superior planes, engines, tactics, training...blah, blah, blah..."

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by Udet

Wmaxt:

That is incorrect.

The "majority" of Luftwaffe experten did not get killed in action. That is another one of the allied tales.

Grab the list of the rough 115 German pilots who shot down 100 or more enemy planes, and you will discover the majority of them in fact finished the war. It can be an illustrative sample.

Also, many of the experten who died during the war, did not so as consequence of enemy action. (i.e. Mölders, Marseille, Lent and a long etc)

I sometimes wonder what the definition of "majority" is in allied depositions.

Finally, and as Erich correctly put it, by late 1944 and during 1945, USAAF losses were everything but "minimum".

As I have mentioned in other threads, it would be interesting to ask the few USAAF guys who survived several Sturmgruppe attacks if German pilots were "ill-trained" by late 1944.

There were cases of German pilots flying Fw 190 A-8s with the extra-armor for sturm attacks that shot down Mustangs.

Now, if a modified A-8, with some 250 kgs of extra-armor could chew a Mustang, think of a "standard" A-8 or of the AS Bf 109s tuned for super high altitude combat, or of the Fw 190 D.


To an important extent they (USAAF and RAF) won due to overwhelming numerical superioriy and not precisely for having had "superior planes, engines, tactics, training...blah, blah, blah..."

Udet, it is correct. The training data is from the records left after the war both German and US I have the British numbers but didn't want to make things more complicated. Majority is defined as more than 50% thats not to say some like Rall, Galland etc didn't make through the war but most didn't (it doesn't matter how). I think all the experts were shot down at least once and were LUCKY enough to live. Their record is no disgrace, looking at the odds its actually quite remarkable that they did as well as they did.

You've said this stuff a lot, Please list the Expert German pilots of mid '43 and show us how many survived to mid '44 and then the end of the war. Then Please list the times the sturm groups decimated the Allies and compare the times it was unable to stop the Allied aircraft.

Minimum in a case like this would mean that there are not enough losses to require different Stratagy or Tactics. BTW I never mentioned "minimum" anything.

I'm not sure which pilot/s said this but the saying was ~ closing my canopy was like closing my coffin and We fly till we die. Those are fatalistic views and the records verified them. The German pilots didn't get to leave combat when they were worn out resulting in 1. losses due to exaustion 2, denied the opportunity to pass their experiance on. The Allies had the luxury to use both. The high personel scores in the German Air Force are often due as much to the fact they were in combat sometimes over 1,000 sorties that's Twenty times the opportunities that AAF pilots had, why wern't they higher if thier skill and aircraft were vastly superior?

As for the Vastly superior Bf-109/Fw-190,s they were shot down in 1:1 combat with Allied aircraft often enough.

Again there is no disgrace here they fought bravely against what ended up as insurmountable odds. but the Facts are the Allied Forces had aircraft of comparable performance, better training and better resources supplying more of everything.

wmaxt

[Soren]

The P-51 was designed as a replacement for the P-40 even down to the requirements for the use of the same engine and prop. The merlin and extra fuel came later and worked out exceptionaly well.

It was designed and intended as an escort fighter aswell.

I agree it was no wonder plane but it was every bit as good as the Bf-109 and with a better pilot compettitive with the Fw-190.

As a dogfighter, the P-51 falls awfully short compared to the Bf-109.

Originally Posted by wmaxt

This was proven many times in combat.

No, far from it... What was proven was that the P-51's 8-1 ratio in numbres was effective. There's a big difference

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by Soren

It was designed and intended as an escort fighter aswell.

As a dogfighter, the P-51 falls awfully short compared to the Bf-109.

No, far from it... What was proven was that the P-51's 8-1 ratio in numbres was effective. There's a big difference

No. the P-40 was never intended to escort and the P-51 was originaly to be P-40s untill NAA convinced them to try a new design. Escort was not contemplated even by the AAF. At that time self escort was the stratagy. I've also never read escort mentioned in reference to the P-51 until the Merlin conversion showed low fuel consumption in early '43. This includes imterviews with the P-51 designers. In fact the A-36/Mustang I version stopped production for two months in early '43 because it was not enough of an improvement over anything else - the Merlin/realization that escort was required saved it.

Numbers, tactics and pilot training/experiance do to. I think the P-51 is way overated (the P-38 is quite a bit better in virtualy every respect) but it could and did hold it's own in combat, with/without numbers, even with the majority of Fw-190 encounters and I consider the Fw-190 quite a bit better than the Bf-109. The 109K was a better match to the P-51 but they were late and few.

wmaxt

[lesofprimus]

And the fact that the Luftwaffe would send up 10 fighters to assault a formation of over 120 aircraft... There wasnt enough fuel........

Here are the Top Aces and what happened to them...

The 300 Club......

Erich Alfred "Bubi" Hartmann - 352, The Ace of Aces flew around 1,456 (missions). He engaged in air combat approximately 850 times, was never shot down by an enemy plane and never lost a wingman (Gunther Capito was shot down but survived). He surrendered to the Americans on May 8th 1945 and was subsequently turned over to the Russians. He was 'tried' for 'war crimes' and was sentenced to 25 years hard labor. He then spent the next 10 and a half years in Russian Gulags. After his release, he served in the Bundesluftwaffe. He "joined old friends" on the 19th of September 1993.

Erich Gerhard "Gerd" Barkhorn - 301, Flew 1104 missions. Badly hurt in an Me262 crash on April 17th 1945. He surrendered to the Americans at the end of the war but, surprisingly, he was not turned over to the Russians. He retired as a Major General from the Bundesluftwaffe. During a winter storm on January 6th 1983, Barkhorn and his wife were involved in a car accident. She died at the scene and he died 2 days later

The 200 club...........

Gunther Rall - 275, Flew 621 missions. Shot down 8 times. Badly wounded including the loss of his left thumb during a wild combat session with P-47's of "Zemke's Wolfpack". 'Captured' by the British. Joined Bundesluftwaffe. Retired in 1975. Still alive and signing autographs as of 2003

**Otto "Bruno" Kittel - 267, Flew 583 combat missions. Shot down twice and survived before being KIA February 14th 1945. At the time he was flying a FW190A-8 ("Black 1") as Staffelkapitan of 2./JG 54

**Walter "Nowi" Nowotny - 258, 1st to 250 kills and in only 442 missions! Ouch. Austrian, KIA November 8th 1944 (by Edward R. Haydon) while flying an Me262 against B-17s. "Nowi", finding himself burning alive, nose dived into the ground. He was 23

Wilhelm "Willi" Batz - 237, Evaded Soviet capture at war's end. Joined and retired from the Bundesluftwaffe. Died September 11th 1988

Erich Rudorffer - 224, (12 with a jet) Holds Luftwaffe record of most kills in a single mission with 13. Was shot down 16 times. Bailed out 9 times. Survived the war and served in the Bundesluftwaffe. He retired as a commercial pilot. Was still alive as of 2000 but does not discuss the war years

Heinrich "Pritzl" Bar - 221, (16 with a jet. Another luftwaffe record) Survived the war but was killed in a civilian plane crash in 1957

Herman Graf - 212, (200 in 13 months!) Survived the war. Surrendered to the Americans with Hartmann and was turned over to the Russians. Released in 1950. Died 4 November 1988

**Heinrich Ehrler - 209, KIA April 4th 1945. After shooting down two B-17's and running out of ammo, Ehrler is reported to have said, " Theo! (Weissenberger) I have run out of ammunition! I am going to ram this one! Auf Wiedersehen! I'll see you in Valhalla!" and then he ramed a third B-17. His body was found the next day.

Theodore "Theo" Weissenberger - 208, Survived the war and was killed in a car racing accident at Nurburgring, June 10th 1950

**Hans "Fips" Philipp - 206, KIA October 8th 1943 while flying a FW 190. This kill was claimed by Robert S. Johnson but Luftwaffe eye witnesses say it was the gunners in the B-17's they were attacking that got him.

Walter Schuck - 206, Flew only 109s and 262s. He survived the war and was still around and signing autographs as of 1999.

**Anton "Toni" Hafner - 204, KIA October 17th 1944 when he lost situational awareness in a low-level dogfight with Yaks (big mistake) and his 109 hit a tree.

Helmut Lipfert - 203, Was shot down 15 times. Survived the war. Surrendered but was not turned over to the Russians and subsequently became a school teacher. Died in 1990

[Erich]

here might be a spot to enter an interesting note. Tony Hackl a bomber/fighter killer preferred the 109G-6/AS to take on US fighter escorts and then the Fw 190A-8 to take on US heavy bombers.........

so what is this telling us guys ? I have said repeatedly the 109 was superior at high altitiude and the Fw 190A was the overall best defence prop job against the heavy bomber pulks

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by Erich

here might be a spot to enter an interesting note. Tony Hackl a bomber/fighter killer preferred the 109G-6/AS to take on US fighter escorts and then the Fw 190A-8 to take on US heavy bombers.........

so what is this telling us guys ? I have said repeatedly the 109 was superior at high altitiude and the Fw 190A was the overall best defence prop job against the heavy bomber pulks

I have no quibble with the comments above posts in genral.

First I would never question the bravery of any of the combattants. At times both sides flew with 10:1 odd against them wheather it was P-38 pilots in late '43 or German pilots in '44/'45.

Second I respect the German Aces but how many of them were at or over 30 kills in 50 sorties or less, remember to, the German pilots had a more target rich environment so to speak? And to be fair how many Allied pilots would make it through the sorties the German pilots had to face? BTW I consider it luck to bail out of anything in WWII and live.

My comment to Udet was in relation to his comment that most of the pre '43 experts made it through the war - not Many did. I think it was a terrible waste to lose those fine men but it did happen.

Of course the aircraft evaluations above are in reference to Luftwaffe aircraft available.

wmaxt

[Udet]

wmaxt:

Whatever records you might have consulted, all I can tell you is have fun! Continue to sing the same old allied song.

Whatever!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Erich

here might be a spot to enter an interesting note. Tony Hackl a bomber/fighter killer preferred the 109G-6/AS to take on US fighter escorts and then the Fw 190A-8 to take on US heavy bombers.........

so what is this telling us guys ? I have said repeatedly the 109 was superior at high altitiude and the Fw 190A was the overall best defence prop job against the heavy bomber pulks

Agreed completely. That in my opinion is the best way to sum it up.

Originally Posted by Udet

Whatever records you might have consulted, all I can tell you is have fun! Continue to sing the same old allied song.

Whatever!

O' Brother, here we go again.