P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's

[Soren]

Originally Posted by wmaxt

No, those stats say it could/should. We still need the actuall numbers produced in the manouvers in question ie how fast does it accelerate, roll, turn, enter an accelerated stall and retain energy. There is often a dissparity between theory and reality.

I must disagree, the stats are more than enough to 'roughly' determine the a/c's performance.

Remember the 109K-4 would do 4,880ft/min and reach 20,000ft in 4.7min, and had a max speed of 452mph. This coupled with the much lower lift-loading and better wing-aspect ratio, power-loading, wing CL-max, max wing AoA, is more than enough if you ask me...

I've read pilot accounts on both sides that say their plane was better and at least for those pilots that was true or they would not have lived to say it. Or is it only because the Bf-109 is harder to fly at it's max and the average German pilot was to inexperianced to make full use of it?

According to pilot accounts and aerodynamic data, this is by far the most likely theory. Although I would alter it to the "average German pilot in 44-45".

Right now I see two aircraft that are very close, one has some stats that infer it could/should be better. We have nothing difinitive yet that can tell us it was better or by how much.

We won't get any 'real' definitive answer before someone actually goes out and tests these two a/c's against each other, and display the results officially...

But I can tell you that modern mock fights between the Bf-109 and P-51, are highly in favor of the 109.

[plan_D]

According to pilot accounts and aerodynamic data, this is by far the most likely theory. Although I would alter it to the "average German pilot in 44-45".

Why would you change it to 1944-45? If you look at the war as a whole the Bf-109 never really gained a massive advantage over other aircraft. In 1940, the Bf-109E was not a cut above the Spitfire or Hurricane. It was equals to both, with many German pilots stating they would not turn with a Hurricane or Spitfire.
Most give accounts of the Bf-109E being comparable to the Spitfire in a dogfight, while only a few say they were in a superior plane. This says to me, if what you're saying about the plane is true that the majority of pilots certainly were not able to fly the plane to it's full. After all, they weren't all Adolf Galland.

In 1941-'43 the Bf-109F and G never really gained any upper-hand over the Spitfire. The Bf-109F is stacked up on equal terms against the Spitfire V. It was the Fw-190A that made the Air Ministry quickly jump on to the Spitfire IX. I've seen many Spitfire IX pilots talking about how the Spitfire would out do the Bf-109 in every aspect.

Certainly, in my eyes, it seems the Bf-109 was only pushed to it's full ability by a select few of naturally talented and combat experienced pilots. This plane was not a rookies plane, for sure. It only came into it's own when an expert could mask it's faults, and make full use of it's perks. Unlike a Spitfire, Hurricane or Mustang in which a green pilot could make the plane do wonderful things.

[KraziKanuK]

Originally Posted by Soren

Remember the 109K-4 would do 4,880ft/min and reach 20,000ft in 4.7min, and had a max speed of 452mph. This coupled with the much lower lift-loading and better wing-aspect ratio, power-loading, wing CL-max, max wing AoA, is more than enough if you ask me...

Only problem with those number is that they are for 1.98 ata and required C3 fuel. Consider the low fuel stocks in Germany at the time and the 190 had to use C3 it is questionable, how many of the K-4s in the 4 Gruppen that were suppose to convert to 1.98 really did so. The 4 Gruppen (I. / JG 27, III. / JG 2, III. / JG 53, IV. / JG 53) had only 91 operational K-4s as of April 9 1945. Testing of 1.98 started in Dec 1944 but was questionably cleared in early/mid March 1945. There was also much reliabilty problems with the DB605 which also puts into question the use of 1.98.

1.80 ata gave the K-4 a speed of 444mph

[lesofprimus]

Man I was just starting to enjoy the fact that KK had left us for good..... Been almost a month with no KK and boy what a great time its been........

Oh well.......

[plan_D]

Can I borrow that picture of a can of Whoop ass you have, les? Just for that?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont think this debate is ever going to come to a conlusion as to which aircraft was better. It has been going on since 1936 damn it.

[Erich]

two cents on the topic.

I./JG 27 lost 42 K-4's during the war.
II./JG 27 lost 2 K-4's
IV./JG 27 lost 22 K-4's

[lesofprimus]

Yes u can pD... Here ya go...

[lesofprimus]

two cents on the topic.

I./JG 27 lost 42 K-4's during the war.
II./JG 27 lost 2 K-4's
IV./JG 27 lost 22 K-4's

erich, whats up with all the 2's (twos) ???

Very strange...

Out of those 66 aircraft, how many JG27 pilots were lost from those K-4's???? Very curious if u have that info...

[plan_D]

Thank you for the pic, les. It will come in handy in the future, I'm sure. And maybe the K-4 liked to get shot down in twos?

[lesofprimus]

Heres another.... For when u need just a couple of dashes of whoopass and not the whole can....

[Erich]

the III./JG 27 losses could be higher as towarads April 45 it just mentions 109 without variant listed.


JG 4 lost at least 69 K-4's in I., III., and IV. gruppes with the bulk lost in III. gruppe.

will have to check further on losses in JG 27 further

[lesofprimus]

Erich, please read my previous previous post........

[Erich]

Les I am working on it. wanted to indicate though that the III./JG 27 may have had more K-4's lost than what I indicated.

IV./JG 27 lost 25 K-4's in 1945 with 9 pilots KIA

[lesofprimus]

Oh sorry dude... Didnt know u were talkin to me....

IV./JG 27 lost 25 K-4's in 1945 with 9 pilots KIA

1 outta 3.... Hmmmmmm....