 | P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's| Aviation Discuss P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's in the World War II - Aviation forums; I understand that the late war variants of the Me-109 and Fw-190 were not "outclassed" by ... |
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06-21-2005, 05:14 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
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| P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's
I understand that the late war variants of the Me-109 and Fw-190 were not "outclassed" by the P-51 but were instead heavily outnumbered and that this numerical superiority of the P-51's gave the impression that the German fighters were outclassed.
My question is this:
What sort of numerical differential are we talking about?
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06-21-2005, 05:17 PM
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#2 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,665
Country:  | try 10 or 12 to 1 for starts.....
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06-21-2005, 05:57 PM
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#3 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
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Country:  | Damn I knew it was high but not that high.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-21-2005, 06:25 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
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| It was very high... I am although quite surprised to hear it was as high as 12 to 1 ! 
I always thought it was 7 or 8 to 1.
Where did you get this data Erich ?
__________________  We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
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06-21-2005, 06:33 PM
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#5 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,577
Country: | I agree I was thinking for about 7 or 8 myself.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-21-2005, 06:42 PM
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#6 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,665
Country: | Soren where do you think ?  the veterans of course. It was always made up in the after action combat reports and although in later 1944 till wars end the German radar systems in Frnce were gone they had very powerful sources that could tell when the Allied heavies were taking off as well as how many US prop fighters were taking off, thus you can easily see how the Luftwaffe pilots felt they were on a continual suicide mission late 44 till wars end. In some instances in 1945 it was over 25 to 1
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06-21-2005, 06:52 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
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| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Erich Soren where do you think ? the veterans of course. | Oh, ofcourse ! Quote: |
It was always made up in the after action combat reports and although in later 1944 till wars end the German radar systems in Frnce were gone they had very powerful sources that could tell when the Allied heavies were taking off as well as how many US prop fighters were taking off, thus you can easily see how the Luftwaffe pilots felt they were on a continual suicide mission late 44 till wars end. In some instances in 1945 it was over 25 to 1.
| Holy mother of mary ! 25 to 1 !
I must admit I never knew this. Always thought it was at most 8 to 1 in relatively rare instances, and that 6 to 1 was the normal...
One thing is for sure, those LW boys managed a hell of alot considdering their situation.
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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06-21-2005, 06:52 PM
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#8 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,577
Country: | I can believe it was that high I just did not think it was.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-21-2005, 06:57 PM
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#9 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,665
Country: | after Normandie was done and over and we started plopping our bases on the main continent we could strike anywhere and not just from England anymore. wherever the Luftwaffe was going to be up, the RAF and US was there in overwhleming force. with only 6 ? Reich defence units still in the Reich in February 1945; the others on the Ost front you can easily anticipate my figures on missions of 20/25 to 1 in 1945. It was a bloody slaughter of German youth !
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06-21-2005, 07:03 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
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| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Erich after Normandie was done and over and we started plopping our bases on the main continent we could strike anywhere and not just from England anymore. wherever the Luftwaffe was going to be up, the RAF and US was there in overwhleming force. with only 6 ? Reich defence units still in the Reich in February 1945; the others on the Ost front you can easily anticipate my figures on missions of 20/25 to 1 in 1945. It was a bloody slaughter of German youth ! | I must agree.
However I never imagined it to be 10/12 to 1 in 44.
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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06-21-2005, 07:08 PM
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#11 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,577
Country: | It is crazy!
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-21-2005, 07:10 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
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| I had always assumed it was about 5 or 6 to one as well.
25 to one? That means a flight of six would have faced 150. Hard to believe.
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06-21-2005, 07:12 PM
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#13 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
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Country: | Not really if you think about it. Most Luftwaffe fighters were up to intercept the allied bombers and how many fighters were escorting and protecting them. In a flight of 500 bombers there was easily 75 to 100 fighters.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-21-2005, 07:20 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 714
| And where 75 to 100 fighters flew escort for up to 500 bombers, there were only 3 to 4 German fighters to intercept?
Like I said, hard to believe. I had no idea the Germans had so few air to air resources late in the war.
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06-21-2005, 07:23 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
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| By 45, the LW were REAL low in men 'and' material.
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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