P-51D "Mustang" vs. Fw-190 "Dora" - Page 2 - Aircraft of World War II

DonL · 06-09-2007, 01:36 PM

I'm with Jackson,

low - even

mid - Dora

high - Mustang

but I think it all depends on the Engine!

If the D9 have had the Jumo 213 E with the three-speed two-stage supercharger, the aircraft would be an equal performer at high altitude.

Erich · 06-09-2007, 01:49 PM

Jan yes you are right and I did not include that. Gelbe 10 was flown in a mock duel at wars end with an RAF ? , rats cannot remember. I have been all over that great looking hot rod when it was based in the Champlin Museum in southern Arizona, even almost getting into the open cockpit my wife and two kids were laughing their heads off as I was acting like a little kid and no-one was in the museum so naturally I was .............. ~

and yes it is a D-13 through and through, the camo had been repainted in a bogus config and then friend Jerry Crandall went down and continued his long work on getting the camo correct. Yellow 10 is covered in a fine soft-back book from Eagle-editions and I think the booklet is OOP

DonL · 06-09-2007, 02:08 PM

@ Erich

How many D-13 were built? In some books they talk about only two Prototyps!

Is this crap?

Erich · 06-09-2007, 02:22 PM

I know of yellow 10 only but

.......... well Eagle editions will answer that in his volume 2 of the Dora this Christmas or early next year. Their volume 1 will cover the Dora 9 and the units that flew them - much on my cousins JG 301 so I am looking forward to that; should be ready and I am only guessing ........... August/September 07.

go to : Luftwaffe Military Aviation Books World War 2 Aviation History Book

click the P-47 and find what's new and go to the Fw 190D pages covering the insides of both volumes. these will be a must have. not sure of the technical aspects on the craft and variants that could be used to debate the Dora vs the Mustang but will be needed reading.

E ~

DonL · 06-09-2007, 02:27 PM

thank you very much

Erich · 06-09-2007, 02:37 PM

sure Don anytime to help

here ya go guys to make it much easier. when these volumes are out grab em !!

dora book

E

Soren · 06-09-2007, 02:50 PM

I say generally it would be like this:

Low alt = Dora-9
Mid alt = Dora-9
High alt = Mustang

At low altitude you wouldn't want to meet the Dora-9 in the P-51, on top of the Dora-9's advantage in maneuverability and climb performance at this altitude it also has a good 15 -20 km/h advantage in speed over the P-51D.

The Mustang Mk.III would make things about even at SL and an advantage for the Dora at mid alt and an advantage for the Mustang at high alt - the Mustang would still have to deal with the superior agility and climb performance of the Dora-9 however.

The Germans themselves concluded the Dora-9 and Mustang to be very much alike in performance at the altitudes where most of the fighting took place. - You can read that in Dietmar's book. Willi Reschke alos notes in his book that the Dora-9 was causing trouble for the P-51's at higher altitudes.

Erich · 06-09-2007, 02:59 PM

well Willi thought the Dora in his Geschwader was doing it to it with the Mustang but the reverse was happening. II. gruppe pilots thought they had an advantage over the Mustang opponents, replacing thier A-9's which was a good idea but they did not have an advantage and the German losses reports for the JG 301 unit provide this......pretty stinking grim, where it excelled was against the Soviets and the Russians never had a chance in my opinion with the Dora 9, but that is not the question here..... ~

this sounds pretty lame from someone who had a relative serve in the unit but JG 301 tactics in 1945 were just plain stupid and awful never putting into practice what the A-9 and D-9 was suited for

Soren · 06-09-2007, 03:05 PM

The Dora-9 was an entirely different beast than the Anton, and the Mustang pilots certainly had their work cut out for them to shoot one down, which is probably what Willi is talking about - he had already seen what happened to Anton's that ventured up high. However the Dora-9's were grossly out-numbered, so nomatter the advantage it had in agility and performance over the Mustang cause in a 1 vs 8 fight it is never gonna end in your favor.

Erich · 06-09-2007, 03:14 PM

I do not agree entirely with your post, I feel the Dora 9 lacked in all departments, what the Luftwaffe needed was the replacement and that was the Ta 15H-1 or the Dora 13. well anyway I will wait for volume 1 of the Dora9 by EE. the Grünherz book produced some years ago covering the Dora fits my evaluation the RAF. RCAF shot up and spit out III./JG 54 and JG 26 on a continual basis and that was not being outnumbered

guess we are looking at two separate and equally needed topics.

1.) what could of been in action

2.) the technical aspects-what-if flown by test pilots before any combat ops and after war to get results such as graphs for comparative purposes

renrich · 06-09-2007, 03:30 PM

My references show FW190D9-take off power=1776HP, Vmax=426mph @ 21650 w/MW50, climb= 3300fpm, service ceiling=32810 ft, range(clean)=520 miles P51D-tke off power=1490 hp, most HP was 1720 hp @6200 ft w/low blower, Vmax=437mph@25000ft, climb=3475ft/m,range(clean)=950 mi, ceiling=41900 ft.

Jackson · 06-09-2007, 03:30 PM

I will stick with my simple comments, as the Mustang was rated as very good at low altitude.

even

dora

'stang

I was reading the Mustang encounters ...about a guy out of ammo @SL , who had just killed a couple of 190's, getting chased all to hell by a 190..

shitting his pants, but living to tell about it..

back to the optimized for low altitude (F/G) or the high altitude 190.. the P51 with or without external racks etc..

heck even barametric pressure that day or fuel quality could make a difference... even down the the spark plugs used

without splitting hairs

DonL · 06-09-2007, 04:07 PM

For me it is only the Engine!

It is little bit difficult to translate "Volldruckhöhe"!

The Jumo 213 A Engine had no three-speed two-stage supercharger only a two-speed two-stage supercharger and so his best outputperformance was at 6000 meters! With GM1 the engine could perform till 8000 meters. So the D9 was no high altitude performer cause of it`s engine!

Only the 213 E has his best outputperformance at 9000 meters and could perform with GM1 till 12000 meters and was an high altitude engine.

At my knowledge no D9 has had a 213E engine and so this very good aircraft was outperformed at high altitude from Mustangs.

Jackson · 06-09-2007, 04:37 PM

thanks for that

plus , I guess, I imagine you could move your ignition timing around from the cockpit..

dunno

Erich · 06-09-2007, 04:41 PM

actually the 213A in the Dora 9 is hitting 1776hp max and then with a push of 10 minutes of the MW 50 installed could reach 2240hp emergency, escape from hot rod P-51D's on your tail or vice versa as shown in several US pilot combat reports. January 20, 45 is a notable event which I will cover later. 325th fg boys came up and broke into 40-50 Fw 190A-8, 9's and Dora 9's which in turn left the bombers and went after the 325th fg.- JG 301

View Poll Results: American luck, or German engineering art?
North American Aviation Inc. P-51D "Mustang"	28	35.44%
Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau AG. Fw-190D-9 "Dora-Neun"	51	64.56%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

06-09-2007, 01:49 PM	#17
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,110	Jan yes you are right and I did not include that. Gelbe 10 was flown in a mock duel at wars end with an RAF ? , rats cannot remember. I have been all over that great looking hot rod when it was based in the Champlin Museum in southern Arizona, even almost getting into the open cockpit my wife and two kids were laughing their heads off as I was acting like a little kid and no-one was in the museum so naturally I was .............. ~ and yes it is a D-13 through and through, the camo had been repainted in a bogus config and then friend Jerry Crandall went down and continued his long work on getting the camo correct. Yellow 10 is covered in a fine soft-back book from Eagle-editions and I think the booklet is OOP __________________ Rip it up !

06-09-2007, 02:22 PM	#19
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,110	I know of yellow 10 only but .......... well Eagle editions will answer that in his volume 2 of the Dora this Christmas or early next year. Their volume 1 will cover the Dora 9 and the units that flew them - much on my cousins JG 301 so I am looking forward to that; should be ready and I am only guessing ........... August/September 07. go to : Luftwaffe Military Aviation Books World War 2 Aviation History Book click the P-47 and find what's new and go to the Fw 190D pages covering the insides of both volumes. these will be a must have. not sure of the technical aspects on the craft and variants that could be used to debate the Dora vs the Mustang but will be needed reading. E ~ __________________ Rip it up !

06-09-2007, 02:37 PM	#21
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,110	sure Don anytime to help here ya go guys to make it much easier. when these volumes are out grab em !! dora book E __________________ Rip it up !

06-09-2007, 02:59 PM	#23
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,110	well Willi thought the Dora in his Geschwader was doing it to it with the Mustang but the reverse was happening. II. gruppe pilots thought they had an advantage over the Mustang opponents, replacing thier A-9's which was a good idea but they did not have an advantage and the German losses reports for the JG 301 unit provide this......pretty stinking grim, where it excelled was against the Soviets and the Russians never had a chance in my opinion with the Dora 9, but that is not the question here..... ~ this sounds pretty lame from someone who had a relative serve in the unit but JG 301 tactics in 1945 were just plain stupid and awful never putting into practice what the A-9 and D-9 was suited for __________________ Rip it up !

06-09-2007, 01:36 PM	#16
DonL Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Niedersachsen Posts: 70	I'm with Jackson, low - even mid - Dora high - Mustang but I think it all depends on the Engine! If the D9 have had the Jumo 213 E with the three-speed two-stage supercharger, the aircraft would be an equal performer at high altitude.

06-09-2007, 02:08 PM	#18
DonL Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Niedersachsen Posts: 70	@ Erich How many D-13 were built? In some books they talk about only two Prototyps! Is this crap?

06-09-2007, 02:27 PM	#20
DonL Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Niedersachsen Posts: 70	thank you very much

06-09-2007, 02:50 PM	#22
Soren Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,625	I say generally it would be like this: Low alt = Dora-9 Mid alt = Dora-9 High alt = Mustang At low altitude you wouldn't want to meet the Dora-9 in the P-51, on top of the Dora-9's advantage in maneuverability and climb performance at this altitude it also has a good 15 -20 km/h advantage in speed over the P-51D. The Mustang Mk.III would make things about even at SL and an advantage for the Dora at mid alt and an advantage for the Mustang at high alt - the Mustang would still have to deal with the superior agility and climb performance of the Dora-9 however. The Germans themselves concluded the Dora-9 and Mustang to be very much alike in performance at the altitudes where most of the fighting took place. - You can read that in Dietmar's book. Willi Reschke alos notes in his book that the Dora-9 was causing trouble for the P-51's at higher altitudes.

06-09-2007, 03:05 PM	#24
Soren Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,625	The Dora-9 was an entirely different beast than the Anton, and the Mustang pilots certainly had their work cut out for them to shoot one down, which is probably what Willi is talking about - he had already seen what happened to Anton's that ventured up high. However the Dora-9's were grossly out-numbered, so nomatter the advantage it had in agility and performance over the Mustang cause in a 1 vs 8 fight it is never gonna end in your favor. Last edited by Soren; 06-09-2007 at 03:07 PM.

06-09-2007, 03:14 PM	#25
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,110	I do not agree entirely with your post, I feel the Dora 9 lacked in all departments, what the Luftwaffe needed was the replacement and that was the Ta 15H-1 or the Dora 13. well anyway I will wait for volume 1 of the Dora9 by EE. the Grünherz book produced some years ago covering the Dora fits my evaluation the RAF. RCAF shot up and spit out III./JG 54 and JG 26 on a continual basis and that was not being outnumbered guess we are looking at two separate and equally needed topics. 1.) what could of been in action 2.) the technical aspects-what-if flown by test pilots before any combat ops and after war to get results such as graphs for comparative purposes __________________ Rip it up !

06-09-2007, 03:30 PM	#26
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,525	My references show FW190D9-take off power=1776HP, Vmax=426mph @ 21650 w/MW50, climb= 3300fpm, service ceiling=32810 ft, range(clean)=520 miles P51D-tke off power=1490 hp, most HP was 1720 hp @6200 ft w/low blower, Vmax=437mph@25000ft, climb=3475ft/m,range(clean)=950 mi, ceiling=41900 ft.

06-09-2007, 03:30 PM	#27
Jackson Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 180	I will stick with my simple comments, as the Mustang was rated as very good at low altitude. even dora 'stang I was reading the Mustang encounters ...about a guy out of ammo @SL , who had just killed a couple of 190's, getting chased all to hell by a 190.. shitting his pants, but living to tell about it.. back to the optimized for low altitude (F/G) or the high altitude 190.. the P51 with or without external racks etc.. heck even barametric pressure that day or fuel quality could make a difference... even down the the spark plugs used without splitting hairs

06-09-2007, 04:07 PM	#28
DonL Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Niedersachsen Posts: 70	For me it is only the Engine! It is little bit difficult to translate "Volldruckhöhe"! The Jumo 213 A Engine had no three-speed two-stage supercharger only a two-speed two-stage supercharger and so his best outputperformance was at 6000 meters! With GM1 the engine could perform till 8000 meters. So the D9 was no high altitude performer cause of it`s engine! Only the 213 E has his best outputperformance at 9000 meters and could perform with GM1 till 12000 meters and was an high altitude engine. At my knowledge no D9 has had a 213E engine and so this very good aircraft was outperformed at high altitude from Mustangs. Last edited by DonL; 06-09-2007 at 04:15 PM.

06-09-2007, 04:37 PM	#29
Jackson Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 180	thanks for that plus , I guess, I imagine you could move your ignition timing around from the cockpit.. dunno

06-09-2007, 04:41 PM	#30
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,110	actually the 213A in the Dora 9 is hitting 1776hp max and then with a push of 10 minutes of the MW 50 installed could reach 2240hp emergency, escape from hot rod P-51D's on your tail or vice versa as shown in several US pilot combat reports. January 20, 45 is a notable event which I will cover later. 325th fg boys came up and broke into 40-50 Fw 190A-8, 9's and Dora 9's which in turn left the bombers and went after the 325th fg.- JG 301 __________________ Rip it up !

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