I think he had just posted complete bullsh*t for most of this posts in this thread and Erich (understandably) was pissed off (at least I think that was what was in the posts don't really remember - at least the first couple).
P-51D "Mustang" vs. Fw-190 "Dora"
- Thread starter pathchampion
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Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Whooops!
Oh he pissed me off too, with his Hartmann is gay posts dont take me wrong. But it was what he last said that through Erich over the counter.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
I have to say though fellas.... you have an extreme long fuse before you ban someone, which is admirable(?). Thumbs up!
Kurfürst
Staff Sergeant
It's a bit more complex than that, I'd say it's better to put it that the Germans kept also using lower grade gasolines through the war, whereas the Allies have gone in around 1941 completely for 100 octane aviation fuels (at least in combat aircraft).
So here is it, briefly and perhaps a bit simplifying it. At the start of the war, 87 octane gasoline was the norm for all countries in service use. At the same time, countries begun to toy with higher grade gasolines. The US made 100 octane for itself, the Brits pretty much imported it from abroad, primarly from the US, whereas the Germans begun to make 100 octane gasoline synthetically. Their 87 octane avgas was designated 'B-4', the 96 octane synthetic gasoline 'C-3' (and the natural one 'C-2' IIRC).
And here's another catch : the Allies and Axis used different octane rating methods... to cut the long story short, the German 96 octane is actually lean rating, whereas Allied fuel is usually is quoted at Rich rating. Rich rating is basically important because it limits how much power you can get out from boosted engines without detonation.
IIRC early British '100' octane fuel was 100/100 (lean/rich), later with US import they had 100/130 grade fuel. Later on in 1944 the British started producing 100/150 grade fuel, but it was only available in small quantities which limited it's service use to practically the 8th AAF's fighters, a couple of RAF Squadrons during the V-1 raids, and some use by the 2nd TAF for a 1-2 month period before the war ended.
The early German C-3 was intitially ca 96/130 by Allied standards, ie. better than early Allied 100 octane fuel. In late 1942, the knocking resistance of C-3 was increased, and now it was about 96/143 grade fuel. Moreover, at least according to post-war Allied examination reports found in the Fischer-Tropsch archieves, in the 2nd half of the war the major volume, appx. 2/3s of the total German avgas production was 96 octane C-3, or 96/143 octane by Allied standards. So while at the same time the Germans did possessed an excellent aviation fuel (better than the best Allied fuels at the time in 1943), and produced in large quantities, they also used lower grade fuels at the same time.
IIRC post-war fighter models like the P-51H that just missed the war also used water injection, but you're right, it was atypical with Allied inlines while radials used them a lot in the Hellcat, Corsair or Thunderbolt.. Ironically, in Germany water injection boost were used in inlines (ie DB 605, Jumo 213) but not at all on the main radial type BMW 801 (which used a practically equivalent method of petrol injection).
Indeed, development paths were rather different. The RAF engines steadily increased supercharging during the war for more power. German engine's output was mainly improved by increasing the volume, increasing the engine rpm, increasing the compression ratio of the engine, and also increasing the supercharging, in that order. A lot of attention was paid for the effiency of powerplant installations.
I always felt that British aero engine development was reminding of the tuning of a race engine (more POWER POWER POWER via boosting, regardless of other factors like consumption and installation effiency), whereas the Germans were steadily developing their engines on multiple 'fronts' with an eye on powerplant effiency as a whole to gain extra aircraft performance.
Both ways can be valid to achieve the same power output, but when one compares the start and the end of the war, it will find the late war Spitfires were carrying 50% more fuel and had 2/3s the range of early war variants, whereas late war 109s were carrying the same amount of fuel and had 50% higher range, while the two aircraft had similiar combat performance (speed etc.).
Yes. The supercharger went the same speed with 100/150 fuel, but more of the air it was pushing was allowed into the engine. It effectively increases the capacity of the engine (because more fuel is fed in as well)
Source?
From the USAAF, dated 5th Feb 1945:
(It goes on to say that if the 8th AF fighters based on the continent were to switch to a different type of 100/150 fuel, it would mean a third type of fuel being supplied)
No, the whole of 2nd TAF went over to 100/150 fuel. The reason was to simplify the supply situation, the last thing they wanted was to have to supply different grades.
You mean the vast majority of Spitfires in early 1943 were LF IXs? Interesting
As of course did the RAF front line units.
The Spitfire IXs went from about 1750 hp to 2050 hp. The Typhoons got power increases of at least 200 hp, and possibly as much as 400+. The Mosquito FB Vis switched from Merlin 23s to Merlin 25s, gaining a few hundred HP in the process. On 150 octane fuel, they gained close to 1,000 hp from their early 1943 figures.
And that doesn't include new types. The Spitfire XIV had over 2000 hp on 100/130 fuel, more than 2,200 on 100/150, and the Tempest was introduced which gave a huge performance increase over the Typhoon.
It's certainly true that in 1944 the Luftwaffe managed to raise their engine powers from the very low levels they had made do with in 1943, for example the DB 605 finally beat the power output the Merlin had been running on in 1942, but by then the Merlin had moved on, to 2000 hp+
Kurfürst
Staff Sergeant
"the RAF on the Continent are using 100/150 fuel" - well that's technically correct even if only one Squadron is using the fuel.
Problem is, 150 grade fuel was only slowly introduced from February 1945 in the 2nd TAF Spitfire Squadrons, it immidiately resulted in fatal incidents and just as it become a bit more widespread in use amongst Squadrons, the accident rate was seen unacceptable and they reverted to 130 grade fuel which also meant reverting to early 1943 power outputs.
That's purely speculation on your part. There's absolutely no written evidence supporting it. The only known hint about the 2nd TAF's planned usage of 150 grade fuel is a note from November 1944, which notes 30 Spitfire Sqns of the 2nd TAF should switch to 150 grade fuel.
The paper does not note that any of Typhoon, Mustang etc Squadrons should switch to 150 grade fuel, in fact, there were more than 30 Squadrons of Spitfires in the 2nd TAF so it's quite clear not even all Spitfires were planned to get 150 grade fuel.
[/QUOTE]You mean the vast majority of Spitfires in early 1943 were LF IXs? Interesting
[/QUOTE]Nope, I say that the vast majority of Spitfires in 1944 (LF IXs) were running on the outputs authorized for IXLFs in 1943.
No they didn't for any practical purpose. The only Spitfires going to +25 / 2050 HP were TWO Squadrons of of Mk IXs (out of 60+) doing operational trials with the new engine boost which otoh turned up engine problem after engine problem, and they reverted to +18 in the summer appearantly. The engine rating were not used on with 99% of the frontline units.
The Spitfire IX at the start of 1943 was runnig on +18 lbs boost. The Spitfire IX in 1944 was still running on +18 lbs boost for the same 1690 HP or so, save two troubled IX squadrons who had been given the unpleasant duty of experienting with +25 lbs boost between March and iirc August? 1944.
You sure have a vivid fantasy. :lol
Neither was available in significant numbers. For example there were 60 XIVs out of some 1500 Spitfires present in mid-1944. There were about 500 Mk Vs. Insignificant. It's a bit like the Me 262 in mid 1944. Not numerous enough to make any difference.
The Spitfire XIV had very short engine life even on +18, and at +21 there were continual failures even after the war ended. The only time the XIVs were operating at +21 lbs was during the few month they were busy chasing V-1s over Britain in 1944.
The only problem is the Merlin did not move to '2000 HP+' until about February 1945 in any numbers, and that for only about two months since almost immidietely engine failures started to occur and the whole bunch again reverted to 130 grade fuel and limited output to about 1690 HP.
Whereas the DB 605 moved to 1800 HP + in around March 1944 and beated the Merlin at all atitudes in output, and by March 1945 they moved to 2000+ HP output, and were planned to go for 2300+ HP output when the war ended.
Jumo 213s were doing 2200+ horsepower in a comparable weight class as the Griffon engines.
You see the difference is the availability. The RAF was toying with high boosts that were being used only in a handful of Squadrons engaged in operational trials and V-1 hunting through 1944, whereas both the LW and the USAAF managed to boost their engine output in the standard service aircraft and used them in large numbers.
It's the same key as in 1943 : availability. Then the RAF was having a handful of Spitfire IX Squadrons with engines running at +18 lbs, which had higher output than the standard issue DB 605 at the time. This gave the Spitfire IX a small advantage in performance over the 109G.
Problem was, all of the LW's units were using Bf 109Gs and FW 190As, whereas most of the RAF was still riding the old Mk Vs. It's nice to have a more powerful engine than the other side, but if that engine is around only in insignificant numbers, it's good as if it wasn't there at all.
Source for these made up facts?
Of course there is. Apart from SHAEF saying 2nd TAF was using 100/150, (and no mention of any other fuel), here's something from Air 25/616, dated 13th Nov 1944:
Note no mention of adding 100/150 fuel, it quite clearly says they will change the grade of fuel consumed.
I know you are not a native English speaker, but that clearly means changing the whole fuel supply, not adding another type.
No, the note you are refering to is an instruction that modifications will be
needed to the aircraft because they will be switching to 100/150 fuel:
So in mid Nov we have something saying the 2nd TAF will switch to 100/150 in December, and that fuel deliveries have already commenced. We have instructions to convert the Spitfires to run on the new fuel. And from the beginning of Feb we have SHAEF telling the USAAF that 2nd TAF are using 100/150.
Against that we have your opinion.
It doesn't note any modifications to other aircraft, you mean.
The Mustangs had of course been covered separately:
Well, they mention 35, which is I believe all of them, except perhaps the PR aircraft, who couldn't make use of the increased boost anyway.
And the 25 - 30 squadrons in 2nd TAF.
Well, I think this thread certainly proves one of us is fantasising, only my fantasies seem to be shared by the RAF and SHAEF. The figures are of course correct.
Source?
Source?
Source?
Source actually showing how many 109s were operating at 1.98 ata?
How many Jumos were running at 2,200 hp?
What we've seen in this thread is a lot of assertions by Kurfurst, few if any backed up by data. Many have been contradicted by original source documents.
Given a choice between believing Kurfurst's claims and SHAEF's assertions, I think I'll trust SHAEF, thanks.
Kurfürst
Staff Sergeant
I am not particularly feeling wasting time for the usual Hoppian rhetorics, how an August 1944 order to convert 45 V-1650 engines for use of V-1 is actually for the ADGB is actually for the 2nd TAF in 1945.
We all know Hop and his ways for a long time to bother about that.
This should prove interesting regarding the 2nd TAF's temporary use of 150 grade fuel in it's Spitfires. A small passage (pg 199) from "Invasion Without Tears", Street/Berger, ISBN#0-394-22277-6 (Random House), from accounts by Monty Berger, Senior Intel Officer of 126 (RCAF) Spitfire Wing, 2 TAF
"He noted [in his day's (apr 20 '45) operational summary] as well that two pilots had walked away-"more or less"-with only slight injuries from wrecked and flaming aircraft at B 116 [Wunstorf, Germany]. Actually, it was a miracle either man survived. Flying officer F R Dennison of 411(sqn) - a Grizzly Bear from Buffalo, NY-crashed while taking off and broke his back. Later in the day, flt leiutenant E B Mossing of 401(sqd), who also had his engine cut during take off, scrapped his Spitfire's belly tank over an obstacle and came down so hard the impact ripped it's wings off, broke the fuselage at the instrument panel and left what remained of the aircraft a mass of flames - yet Mossing "extricated himself with one bone broken in his leg".
The incidents followed a number of engine problems that were attributed to the introduction of 150-grade fuel in early February. Pilots mistrusted it, and were no doubt relieved when the AF brass decided to revert to 130-grade. "the vast majority of pilots, im sure, were beginning to wonder if the additional seven pounds of boost they got from 150-grade fuel were worth the price being paid." the matter was being dicussed at Wunstorf when, incredibly, a spark at the petrol dump ignited and two petrol bowsers containing almost two thousand gallons of the much-despised fuel burst into flames."
Incredibly.
Post war RCAF trials in 1946 confirmed the Griffon 65 engine required a regular replacement after a steady 40 hours, even though by then RR had a lot of time to improve the reliability of the Griffon, and it was running on lower power than in wartime.
The second 2 TAF's planning of 'use of 150 grade fuel' clearly mentions 25 Sqns of Spit Mk IX, 5 Sqns of XIVs. They hoped for 5 Sqns of XIVs, but the Packard Merlin 266's problems were even greater than that of the Merlin 66 as British reports show from late 1944.
Up to February 1945, the only use of 150 grade fuel in the RAF totalled in 2 Sqns of Mk IXs performing operational trials until the summer of 1944 since March, reporting various engine troubles. The other scale (emergency) use of 150 grade fuel was by a handful of ADGB Squadrons which were all engaged in V-1 hunting after the launches started. They all reverted to standard 130 grade fuel in September, 1944, after the campaign stopped.
The rest of the entire RAF never seen a drop of 150 grade fuel and was essentially fighting the war typically with Spitfire Vs, but mainly IXs and Typhoons, with the same performance as in 1943.
We all know Hop and his ways for a long time to bother about that.
This should prove interesting regarding the 2nd TAF's temporary use of 150 grade fuel in it's Spitfires. A small passage (pg 199) from "Invasion Without Tears", Street/Berger, ISBN#0-394-22277-6 (Random House), from accounts by Monty Berger, Senior Intel Officer of 126 (RCAF) Spitfire Wing, 2 TAF
"He noted [in his day's (apr 20 '45) operational summary] as well that two pilots had walked away-"more or less"-with only slight injuries from wrecked and flaming aircraft at B 116 [Wunstorf, Germany]. Actually, it was a miracle either man survived. Flying officer F R Dennison of 411(sqn) - a Grizzly Bear from Buffalo, NY-crashed while taking off and broke his back. Later in the day, flt leiutenant E B Mossing of 401(sqd), who also had his engine cut during take off, scrapped his Spitfire's belly tank over an obstacle and came down so hard the impact ripped it's wings off, broke the fuselage at the instrument panel and left what remained of the aircraft a mass of flames - yet Mossing "extricated himself with one bone broken in his leg".
The incidents followed a number of engine problems that were attributed to the introduction of 150-grade fuel in early February. Pilots mistrusted it, and were no doubt relieved when the AF brass decided to revert to 130-grade. "the vast majority of pilots, im sure, were beginning to wonder if the additional seven pounds of boost they got from 150-grade fuel were worth the price being paid." the matter was being dicussed at Wunstorf when, incredibly, a spark at the petrol dump ignited and two petrol bowsers containing almost two thousand gallons of the much-despised fuel burst into flames."
Incredibly.
Post war RCAF trials in 1946 confirmed the Griffon 65 engine required a regular replacement after a steady 40 hours, even though by then RR had a lot of time to improve the reliability of the Griffon, and it was running on lower power than in wartime.
The second 2 TAF's planning of 'use of 150 grade fuel' clearly mentions 25 Sqns of Spit Mk IX, 5 Sqns of XIVs. They hoped for 5 Sqns of XIVs, but the Packard Merlin 266's problems were even greater than that of the Merlin 66 as British reports show from late 1944.
Up to February 1945, the only use of 150 grade fuel in the RAF totalled in 2 Sqns of Mk IXs performing operational trials until the summer of 1944 since March, reporting various engine troubles. The other scale (emergency) use of 150 grade fuel was by a handful of ADGB Squadrons which were all engaged in V-1 hunting after the launches started. They all reverted to standard 130 grade fuel in September, 1944, after the campaign stopped.
The rest of the entire RAF never seen a drop of 150 grade fuel and was essentially fighting the war typically with Spitfire Vs, but mainly IXs and Typhoons, with the same performance as in 1943.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
And yet, strangely enough, the RAF consumed 49,000 barrels of 150 octane fuel, or about 6700 tons, in August 1944, 44,000 barrels in October and 88,000 in December. Seems an awful lot for just two squadrons of Spitfires.
Further more increasing consumption, even with the end of the V1 threat, seems a little odd if the fuel was that loathed.
And the last frontline Mk V squadrons swapped their fighters for Mk IXs in June or July 1944. None seem to have been based on the continent, with most being part of ADGB and hadn't flown offensive sorties for months, operating as reforming units in Groups 12 and 13.
Kurfürst
Staff Sergeant
That's an in-credible claim, may I see the source?
You have reading comprehension problems it seems. Two Squadrons of Spitfire IXs were mentioned doing (not very successfull) operational trials. There were a small number of Tempest, Mustang, and Spitfire XIV Squadrons engaging in V-1 busting operations and temporarily allowed to use high octane fuel, regardless of the risks of blowing the engine.
They reverted to 130 grade in September 1944, when the raids ended.
Nothing supports the claim consumption would have been increased. In fact, the RAF reverted to 130 grade fuel after the V-1 raids stopped. 150 grade fuel was only produced in Britain in limited quantities in 1944, which limited it's use to gaining a modest increase of power in the USAAF 8th AAF fighters on offensive operations.
This very much appears to be wishful thinking.
According to Neil Stirling, there were still over 500 Mk Vs in service in May 1944 (in comparison: 1000 or so Mk IXs); Mk Vs and they very much continued to use them in the MTO.
In any case, the Mk V was an anachronism even in 1943, when most of the RAF Spitfire Squadrons had to use it anyway, not to mention in 1944.
wwii:)aircraft
Airman
- 32
- Jul 20, 2009
i think both fighters were tied. The dora-9 having a better climb and being more maneuverable at medium and low speeds, while the p-51d was faster and was more maneuverable at high speeds.
But doras like the d12 and d13 were faster than the p-51 (not to mention firepower too)
If the dora came in earlier in the war, maybe around the same time as the p-51, i think it would affected the war becuase the Luftwaffe had the best pilots of the war and any dora-9 in the hands of an ace could easily shoot down a p-51
But doras like the d12 and d13 were faster than the p-51 (not to mention firepower too)
If the dora came in earlier in the war, maybe around the same time as the p-51, i think it would affected the war becuase the Luftwaffe had the best pilots of the war and any dora-9 in the hands of an ace could easily shoot down a p-51
Coors9
Senior Airman
Easily shoot down any Mustang......lol. It's some hard to get respect if your a P-51. That thing was a real thoroughbred, put a Meyer or Preddy or my fav WW2 pilot GENTILE in one and they were tough 1 on 1. Both great birds, give the edge to the best pilot. I'm a little biased,he..he, But i believe Gentile would win 1 on 1 every time.... in which ever one he was drivin'
in which ever one he was drivin'I am glad this thread has been brought to the top of the list or I would have missed the discussion(??) on 150 fuel.
What I find hilarious is Kurfurst moans, groans and belly aches about 100 and 150 fuel, yet when it comes to 1.98ata boost and C3 fuel, all he can supply is circumstantial evidence, which he would, if it was 100 or 150 fuel, dismiss in no uncertain terms.
What I find hilarious is Kurfurst moans, groans and belly aches about 100 and 150 fuel, yet when it comes to 1.98ata boost and C3 fuel, all he can supply is circumstantial evidence, which he would, if it was 100 or 150 fuel, dismiss in no uncertain terms.
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
I don't get the poll title
What do you mean by 'American luck' ?
'Engineering' and 'art' in the same phrase needs some care, too...
What do you mean by 'American luck' ?
'Engineering' and 'art' in the same phrase needs some care, too...
well if i had to fly more than 3 hours to complete my mission then it is the pony obviously ...
if not then it would depend on whether my mission required me to fight, if i gotta fight then it is the dora and here is why ...
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg
as evenly matched as they are this single greatest advantage between the two fighters (that counts after the merge) goes to the dora ...
and in that case all else being = dora wins big imo.
if not then it would depend on whether my mission required me to fight, if i gotta fight then it is the dora and here is why ...
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg
as evenly matched as they are this single greatest advantage between the two fighters (that counts after the merge) goes to the dora ...
and in that case all else being = dora wins big imo.
drgondog
Major
The pilot is still the determinant. The dora died in significant numbers from dec 1944 to EOW when fighting Mustangs.
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
As Bill says the "Dora" TaDa! died in significant numbers against the Mustang and that was after the Mustang pilot had to fly a number of hours to get to the battlefield which was in the FW's backyard. Pilot fatigue had to play a role and the Mustang still prevailed. I think it is rather amusing how we, in the attempt to overcome "Mustang Hype" which surely does exist, neglect over and over again to take into account the stress and fatigue the Mustang drivers had to endure, not to mention the knowledge that if they were shot down they had little chance to avoid capture or death. Many of those Mustang pilots were not what we would call veterans and yet the Mustang largely ruled the skies. It was a great plane and this comes from a Corsair addict.
