P-51D "Mustang" vs. Fw-190 "Dora" - Aircraft of World War II

pathchampion · 06-09-2007, 09:54 AM

Which one was the best in airial combat?, one on one, don't care for the number ratio :P personaly I'll vote for the Focke-Wulf

Soren · 06-09-2007, 11:10 AM

The FW-190 Dora-9 hands down.

Lucky13 · 06-09-2007, 11:14 AM

How does their engines compare to each other?

Jackson · 06-09-2007, 11:20 AM

No vote- I do not like the tone of this loaded question.

Soren · 06-09-2007, 11:34 AM

Lucky,

The Jumo 213A-1 had an out-put of 2,100 PS, the Packard Merlin had an out-put of 1,870 HP.

Jackson · 06-09-2007, 11:35 AM

The 'luck' of the laminar wing was repeatedly copied for a long time, by many aircraft producers.

Wing Design - CONVENTIONAL AIRFOILS and LAMINAR FLOW AIRFOILS

If the LW had had the Mustang during the BoB, they would have won.

Instead of a few lousy minutes over the bomber targets, they could have spent many hours there.

and comparing the Spit with a similarly horse powered engine the Mustang was faster...but less maneuverable, except at high speed..

Very "unlucky" for the LW, they lost the BoB..for the lack of a Mustang type aircraft.. unlucky indeed.. this bad luck continued for them

DonL · 06-09-2007, 12:16 PM

Sorry Jackson,

it wasn't the lack of a Mustang aircraft type!

A drop Tank had done wonders for the ME 109 in the BOB!

Also we had a wonderful in my opinion one of the best aircrafts with the right Engine (two DB 601) since 1937 the FW 187! It was first a single seat heavy Fighter and was then built as two seat "Zerstörer"!

This plane was no prototype, it was fully developed in 1939!

With this plane in service instead of the ME 110, the LW had done a much better performance!

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/fw187.html

Focke-Wulf Fw 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This sources shows the FW 187 with with two Jumo 210 engines, but the real engine was a DB 600 from the ME110!

There were 3 or 4 aircraft with the DB engines and a top speed of 635 km/h!

evangilder · 06-09-2007, 12:19 PM

Why are you bringing the 187 into a discussion about the 190 versus the P-51? Let's keep this on topic.

DonL · 06-09-2007, 12:24 PM

sorry for the OT,

but it was direct answer for Jacksons post.

Jackson · 06-09-2007, 12:32 PM

not to get off topic, but the issue of German use of drop tanks would be a good separate thread.. another one of the many questions I have about the LW, like not using the Ta152 as a high altitude interceptor..

Galland's opinion of Goering and Hitler as far as strategists is repeatedly proved true..

BTW there were '109 drop tanks

Erich · 06-09-2007, 12:35 PM

martin bowman is presenting his thoughts in P-51 vs the Fw 190 in a new Osprey title this upcoming fall..............it should be crap !

maybe we should change the title to Dora 9 vs RCAF and RAF Spits and Tempests as the first Dora and till wars end were pitted against these Allied tuypes continually. III./JG 54 and JG 26.

Dora 's of JG 2 fought them as well as US types, JG 6 vs the US, JG 301 US and Soviet, JG 51 vs Soviet, JG 4 vs Soviet, JG 3 vs Soviet. JG 300 what there were of them and in fact not sure if they ever flew ops in the new bird

~ ( ? ) ~ and jackson go get a copy of W. Reschkes JG 301/302 from schiffer pubs it will explain the many diversions that took place for the TA 152H. Schiifers pub by Dietmar is so-so as it has gaps but what book hasn't. you and the other may just find out why the Ta did not get it fullfillment at high altitude within 2 years - Geschwader stab had one chance to combat Mustangs and I mean only one the other ops were against the Soviets, and this can be balmed on ground control hierarchy strongly

Jackson · 06-09-2007, 12:47 PM

2 years, I thought the aircraft did not enter service until late '44

My opinion on the Dora v Mustang

low - even

mid - Dora

high - Mustang

This must be reconciled with the fact that the Dora optimized for bomber interception with the 20 mm wing guns , was not the same Dora as optimized for high altitude- compare the clipped wing with the long winged Spit

Weren't some Doras produced without the 20 mm wing guns, added fuel tanks and a single fuselage mounted (or wing root? ) 20 mm with more rounds (480) available..

Thus one of the praises of the FW190- (including the F/G) its overall utility, maybe second best only to the P47 as a Jabo and still able to twirl with a Mk IX..

Lucky13 · 06-09-2007, 12:55 PM

I think that I'd go with the D-9. Another thing regarding the engines folks, how would an engine change affect the machines? Merlin in the D-9 and the Junkers Jumo 213A-1 in the Mustang....what would the difference be?

Cheers by the way Soren.

Erich · 06-09-2007, 02:44 PM

jackson I re-read my above post.............man the drugs I am taking really psyche my head.

the first Dora missions were by III./JG 54 in September of 44 with regard to try and provide high cover for Nowotny's bungling Me 262 unit.

The Ta 152H-0 was first used in III./JG 301 in late January of 45.

there were several variants of Dora, the 9, the 11 and 12 with different armaments.

just to be different I am voting the P-51D powerhouse over the Dora 9 in case of maneuverability, speed..............

Lucky13 · 06-09-2007, 03:27 PM

Isn't the all famous D-13 Yellow 10 at Champlin Fighter Aces Museum a "pick and mix"? I remember reading somewhere that it's not a real D-13, but something put together by different parts shortly after the war. Or is it just another myth?

View Poll Results: American luck, or German engineering art?
North American Aviation Inc. P-51D "Mustang"	28	35.44%
Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau AG. Fw-190D-9 "Dora-Neun"	51	64.56%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

06-09-2007, 09:54 AM	#1
pathchampion Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 6	P-51D "Mustang" vs. Fw-190 "Dora" Which one was the best in airial combat?, one on one, don't care for the number ratio :P personaly I'll vote for the Focke-Wulf __________________ (\__/) (='.'=) (")_(") This is Bunny. Put him in your signature and help him on his way to world domination.

06-09-2007, 11:10 AM	#2
Soren Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,109	The FW-190 Dora-9 hands down. __________________ It was like being pushed by an Angel! - Adolf Galland I'm an educated engineer, so I love being technical and appraising of great inventions. So if you think I am being biased about something: Tell me! Then you'll probably find out that I am not

06-09-2007, 11:14 AM	#3
Lucky13 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 15,140	How does their engines compare to each other? __________________ JAN "Felicis Tredecim" "I´m going back to the front to relax" "THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT" "Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!" "When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!"

06-09-2007, 11:34 AM	#5
Soren Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,109	Lucky, The Jumo 213A-1 had an out-put of 2,100 PS, the Packard Merlin had an out-put of 1,870 HP. __________________ It was like being pushed by an Angel! - Adolf Galland I'm an educated engineer, so I love being technical and appraising of great inventions. So if you think I am being biased about something: Tell me! Then you'll probably find out that I am not

06-09-2007, 11:20 AM	#4
Jackson Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 180	No vote- I do not like the tone of this loaded question.

06-09-2007, 11:35 AM	#6
Jackson Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 180	The 'luck' of the laminar wing was repeatedly copied for a long time, by many aircraft producers. Wing Design - CONVENTIONAL AIRFOILS and LAMINAR FLOW AIRFOILS If the LW had had the Mustang during the BoB, they would have won. Instead of a few lousy minutes over the bomber targets, they could have spent many hours there. and comparing the Spit with a similarly horse powered engine the Mustang was faster...but less maneuverable, except at high speed.. Very "unlucky" for the LW, they lost the BoB..for the lack of a Mustang type aircraft.. unlucky indeed.. this bad luck continued for them

06-09-2007, 12:16 PM	#7
DonL Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Niedersachsen Posts: 46	Sorry Jackson, it wasn't the lack of a Mustang aircraft type! A drop Tank had done wonders for the ME 109 in the BOB! Also we had a wonderful in my opinion one of the best aircrafts with the right Engine (two DB 601) since 1937 the FW 187! It was first a single seat heavy Fighter and was then built as two seat "Zerstörer"! This plane was no prototype, it was fully developed in 1939! With this plane in service instead of the ME 110, the LW had done a much better performance! http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/fw187.html Focke-Wulf Fw 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This sources shows the FW 187 with with two Jumo 210 engines, but the real engine was a DB 600 from the ME110! There were 3 or 4 aircraft with the DB engines and a top speed of 635 km/h!

06-09-2007, 12:19 PM	#8
evangilder "Shooter" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 14,807	Why are you bringing the 187 into a discussion about the 190 versus the P-51? Let's keep this on topic. __________________ http://www.vg-photo.com For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return. Leonardo Da Vinci

06-09-2007, 12:24 PM	#9
DonL Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Niedersachsen Posts: 46	sorry for the OT, but it was direct answer for Jacksons post.

06-09-2007, 12:32 PM	#10
Jackson Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 180	not to get off topic, but the issue of German use of drop tanks would be a good separate thread.. another one of the many questions I have about the LW, like not using the Ta152 as a high altitude interceptor.. Galland's opinion of Goering and Hitler as far as strategists is repeatedly proved true.. BTW there were '109 drop tanks Last edited by Jackson; 06-09-2007 at 12:34 PM. Reason: BTW there were '109 drop tanks

06-09-2007, 12:35 PM	#11
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,774	martin bowman is presenting his thoughts in P-51 vs the Fw 190 in a new Osprey title this upcoming fall..............it should be crap ! maybe we should change the title to Dora 9 vs RCAF and RAF Spits and Tempests as the first Dora and till wars end were pitted against these Allied tuypes continually. III./JG 54 and JG 26. Dora 's of JG 2 fought them as well as US types, JG 6 vs the US, JG 301 US and Soviet, JG 51 vs Soviet, JG 4 vs Soviet, JG 3 vs Soviet. JG 300 what there were of them and in fact not sure if they ever flew ops in the new bird ~ ( ? ) ~ and jackson go get a copy of W. Reschkes JG 301/302 from schiffer pubs it will explain the many diversions that took place for the TA 152H. Schiifers pub by Dietmar is so-so as it has gaps but what book hasn't. you and the other may just find out why the Ta did not get it fullfillment at high altitude within 2 years - Geschwader stab had one chance to combat Mustangs and I mean only one the other ops were against the Soviets, and this can be balmed on ground control hierarchy strongly __________________ Rip it up ! Last edited by Erich; 06-09-2007 at 12:38 PM.

06-09-2007, 12:47 PM	#12
Jackson Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 180	2 years, I thought the aircraft did not enter service until late '44 My opinion on the Dora v Mustang low - even mid - Dora high - Mustang This must be reconciled with the fact that the Dora optimized for bomber interception with the 20 mm wing guns , was not the same Dora as optimized for high altitude- compare the clipped wing with the long winged Spit Weren't some Doras produced without the 20 mm wing guns, added fuel tanks and a single fuselage mounted (or wing root? ) 20 mm with more rounds (480) available.. Thus one of the praises of the FW190- (including the F/G) its overall utility, maybe second best only to the P47 as a Jabo and still able to twirl with a Mk IX..

06-09-2007, 12:55 PM	#13
Lucky13 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 15,140	I think that I'd go with the D-9. Another thing regarding the engines folks, how would an engine change affect the machines? Merlin in the D-9 and the Junkers Jumo 213A-1 in the Mustang....what would the difference be? Cheers by the way Soren. __________________ JAN "Felicis Tredecim" "I´m going back to the front to relax" "THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT" "Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!" "When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!"

06-09-2007, 02:44 PM	#14
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,774	jackson I re-read my above post.............man the drugs I am taking really psyche my head. the first Dora missions were by III./JG 54 in September of 44 with regard to try and provide high cover for Nowotny's bungling Me 262 unit. The Ta 152H-0 was first used in III./JG 301 in late January of 45. there were several variants of Dora, the 9, the 11 and 12 with different armaments. just to be different I am voting the P-51D powerhouse over the Dora 9 in case of maneuverability, speed.............. __________________ Rip it up !

06-09-2007, 03:27 PM	#15
Lucky13 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 15,140	Isn't the all famous D-13 Yellow 10 at Champlin Fighter Aces Museum a "pick and mix"? I remember reading somewhere that it's not a real D-13, but something put together by different parts shortly after the war. Or is it just another myth? __________________ JAN "Felicis Tredecim" "I´m going back to the front to relax" "THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT" "Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!" "When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!" Last edited by Lucky13; 06-09-2007 at 04:34 PM.

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