 | P-61 Black Widow| Aviation Discuss P-61 Black Widow in the World War II - Aviation forums; I will agree with you on that also.... |
|
03-23-2005, 02:09 PM
|
#46 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country:  | I will agree with you on that also.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | 
|  | |
03-24-2005, 06:08 AM
|
#47 | | Master of Ewes
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country:  | me too...........
__________________ 
"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy." | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 06:36 AM
|
#48 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 41
| Disagree! I would pick the P-61C over any Mosquito any day. | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 07:09 AM
|
#49 | | Master of Ewes
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country: | hey it's your funeral............
__________________
"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy." | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 08:55 AM
|
#50 | | "Shooter"
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA
Posts: 12,880
Country:  | The P-61C never saw combat. Pilots who flew the C said that while some of the performance was improved, the manueverability suffered because of the added weight. When it comes to allied nightfighters, the Mossie was the clear choice.
__________________  http://www.vg-photo.com Wherever their bones may lie, the courage of heroes is consecrated in the hearts and engraved in the history of the free. Lt Col Honner DSO MC, 39th Commander speaking of the dead from the battle of Kokoda. | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 09:03 AM
|
#51 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 41
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by evangilder The P-61C never saw combat. Pilots who flew the C said that while some of the performance was improved, the manueverability suffered because of the added weight. When it comes to allied nightfighters, the Mossie was the clear choice. | The weight difference was less than 10%. I doubt it affects anything substantially. Especially since power loading was better meaning the rate of turn must have been better! | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 09:26 AM
|
#52 | | Master of Ewes
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country: | it's wing loading that effects rate or turn more, and a 10% weight increase is allot...........
__________________
"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy." | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 10:30 AM
|
#53 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by pasoleati Quote: |
Originally Posted by evangilder The P-61C never saw combat. Pilots who flew the C said that while some of the performance was improved, the manueverability suffered because of the added weight. When it comes to allied nightfighters, the Mossie was the clear choice. | The weight difference was less than 10%. I doubt it affects anything substantially. Especially since power loading was better meaning the rate of turn must have been better! | 10% is actually a whole lot, especially when it comes to climb rate and speed and overall maneuaverability. For example when we fly out Blackhawks without passengers we can typically reach a good climb rate (this is not max power stuff) of about 1000ft per min (which is about what you want to keep the passengers confortable), a speed of about 140 knots at about 68-70% power (much faster if we pull in 100% or more power), and we are quite maneuaverable. If we just put in 11 passengers that is not a whole lot of weight, it effects the center of gravity which effects the maneauverability we can still pull in about 1000ft but have to use more power and to reach 140 knots we have to pull in about 75-78% power. All because of a measly 1000lb of weight. Weight effects alot.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 02:13 PM
|
#54 | | "Shooter"
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA
Posts: 12,880
Country: | If you don't believe that the manueverability was effected, you haven't spoken with any pilots that flew them. This has been stated by many vets that flew them. It was never proven in combat either. Most pilots who flew the P-61C felt that the increase in weight made the aircraft a lot less maneuverable than the A or B versions. The service life of the P-61C was quite brief, since it was being quickly outclassed by jet aircraft. Most were used for test and research purposes. By the end of March 1949, most P-61Cs had been scrapped. Two went onto the civilian market and two others went to museums. http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p61_4.html
__________________ http://www.vg-photo.com Wherever their bones may lie, the courage of heroes is consecrated in the hearts and engraved in the history of the free. Lt Col Honner DSO MC, 39th Commander speaking of the dead from the battle of Kokoda. | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 03:22 PM
|
#55 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 527
| Update. | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 03:29 PM
|
#56 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 41
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by evangilder If you don't believe that the manueverability was effected, you haven't spoken with any pilots that flew them. This has been stated by many vets that flew them. It was never proven in combat either. Most pilots who flew the P-61C felt that the increase in weight made the aircraft a lot less maneuverable than the A or B versions. The service life of the P-61C was quite brief, since it was being quickly outclassed by jet aircraft. Most were used for test and research purposes. By the end of March 1949, most P-61Cs had been scrapped. Two went onto the civilian market and two others went to museums. http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p61_4.html | These pilots claim "a lot less maneuverable". This IMHO means several tens of percent decrease in rate of roll and rate of turn. I seriously doubt it.
And the Blackhawk example was a poor one. 1000 lbs in relation to its weight is wholly different ballgame than a 2000 lbs in relation to P-61´s weight. | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 06:00 PM
|
#57 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by pasoleati These pilots claim "a lot less maneuverable". This IMHO means several tens of percent decrease in rate of roll and rate of turn. I seriously doubt it.
And the Blackhawk example was a poor one. 1000 lbs in relation to its weight is wholly different ballgame than a 2000 lbs in relation to P-61´s weight. | Every little bit of weight effects the flying performance and characteristics. I am sorry but you are wrong if you dont believe it.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 06:13 PM
|
#58 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 9,511
Country: | lets make it very clear right now, the P-61C did not complete any combat ops during WW 2, so it needs to be negated and cannot be compared with any Allied or German WW twin engine a/c for a performance standard........... | |
| | |
03-24-2005, 06:20 PM
|
#59 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | Not trying to do so, just saying that weight will effect performance, even minimal weight.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
| | |
03-25-2005, 10:24 AM
|
#60 | | "Shooter"
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA
Posts: 12,880
Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by pasoleati These pilots claim "a lot less maneuverable". This IMHO means several tens of percent decrease in rate of roll and rate of turn. I seriously doubt it. | You can choose to believe it or not, but these are people that actually flew the airplane.
And Erich is correct, it was never flown in combat.
__________________ http://www.vg-photo.com Wherever their bones may lie, the courage of heroes is consecrated in the hearts and engraved in the history of the free. Lt Col Honner DSO MC, 39th Commander speaking of the dead from the battle of Kokoda. | |
| | | Thread Tools | Search this Thread | | | | | Display Modes |  Linear Mode | 
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:21 PM. | | |
