P-61 Black Widow

[Gemhorse]

Erich is absolutely correct......I seriously dispute GT's stated ''P-61 vs Mosquito'' figures totally !! ...While the P-61 may have been powerful and well-armed, it was a wheelbarrow in comparison to the Mosquito, just check the weights for a start...In every book you care to read on WWII Nightfighting, you'll see the Mosquito as the best....If any aircraft came close to the Mosquito as a Nightfighter, it was the Ju-88G's....
The Mosquito Nightfighters started in the first week of 1942, gradually replacing the slower but still very effective Beaufighters, who had in turn replaced first the Defiants, the Blenheims, the Havocs with Turbinlites in concert with Hurricanes.....and the Mossies carried on in this role till well after WWII.

The only claim to fame the P-61 had, it was the first American purpose-built nightfighter...Germany had the world's first purpose-built nightfighter in the He-219, and they both couldn't match the Mosquito.....
Furthermore, guns in the nose as the P-61 and the P-38 for that matter, were near useless, as gunflash blinded the crew....All Beaufighters and Mosquito Nightfighters used only the 4x 20mm UNDER the nose, and that was bright enough....
The other factor was the US crews must've been inadequately trained in nightfighting in the P-61, as aircraft recognition was a very important aspect of this type of warfare, the night sky had hundreds of aircraft flying around, and both RAF and Luftwaffe crews were very careful in this, before they pressed the tit, and even then mistakes were sometimes made... Crews trained intensely to become adept at this craft, the pairing-up of pilot and R/O especially, where patience and timing was critical....
As far as claims went, they were suspect unless they were confirmed by gun-cameras and independent sources....When US pilots could include aircraft shot-up on the ground as a kill towards their 'ace' status, this was hardly fair.....What fascinates me was painting P-61's GLOSS black, which would reflect like hell at night...might have given it an extra 10 mph, but light reflection off the glass panels was bad enough....The British moved out of total matt black into top camo later in the War, and the Luftwaffe were very articulate with their camo.....Good try GT, I respect your patrotism, but if the P-61 had lost some weight, they may have had a bloody good NF then........

[Erich]

Gem just to make it clear there was a run off between the Mossie and the P-61 to see which a/c the 422nd and 425th nfs was to take on. I think it was clearly decided even if the Mossie looked superior that the American pride was going to shine forth and the P-61A was going to be accepted regardless no matter what happeneed. the rest was history the two ETO units took on the P-61A and did their best with equipment that was run into the ground even with newer B's attached to their squadrons the paint coming off every single exposed part of the a/c. There were no new P-61's given after the older B's/no spare parts and the squadrons had to makeshift to keep the a/c running in the best condition possible till war's end.

E ~

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That I can believe.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by hellmaker

I always saw the P-61 Blackwidow as a night bomber...It's intresting you say it is a night fighter, did it have the manouvrability of a fighter or did it relly on the cover of darkness to engage it's victims... I know that it was one of the first planes to have an onboard radar which could have made it an effective night fighter but also a bomber... As a fighter it's strong point would have been the crew number(I'm guessing 5, this meaning 5 pears of trained eyes), giving it an advantage in spotting the enemy... My respect to the Widow...

The Bristol Blenheim & Beaufighter were equiped with onboard radar in 1940 for nightfighting.

[Andrew]

There were 4 American Nightfighter Units using the Beaufighter in Italy with the 12th ASC , these were the 414th, 415th, 416th & 417th Nightfighter Squadrons, the 414th NFS received P61A,s on 20/12/1944, the 415th received it's first P61A's on 20/03/1945, and flew both Beaufighters & P61's until the End of the war, the 416th received Mosquito's on 29/11/1944 and eventually receiving P61A's after VE Day, & the 417th NFS received P61A's sometime after 20/07/1944.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think the P-61 would be better suited as a night fighter then a day fighter.

[mosquitoman]

It would get slaughtered during the day. It was quite manouverable but it had the same principle as the Beau- if something gets infront of it it's going down. If there were enemy planes behnd it, it didn't stand much of a chance

[Piaggio108]

The problems with the canopy exploding were with the YP-61 in high speed dives when the airflow over the canopy and tailcone caused lower outside pressure. Baugher says that it would implode, which would seem to be a mistake, but I may be mistaken about what would cause it. It was aparently fixed in the P-61A and later.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

hey the beau was quite manouverable to you know, a very low wing loading...........

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Here we go again

[the lancaster kicks ass]

my we're very anti-british tonight............

[mosquitoman]

Yes but compared to a FW-190, a P-61 (or a Beau) would compare badly when it came to manouverability

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

my we're very anti-british tonight............

No not really, I just give credit to things wheather they were built by my country or not. If it was good it was good, and I dont have a problem admitting something was better then an aircraft built by my country.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

my we're very anti-me this morning..........

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No dont worry Lanc, I still love you!