p-80 V Me 262

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-08-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krieghund

There were six P-80A's stationed in Northern Italy prior to the war's end

Actually only 4 were sent to Europe and 2 of those were in Northern Italy. The other 2 went to England. The 2 that went to Italy were 1st Fighter Group at Lesina, Italy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krieghund

but poor serviceability the lack of German Jets airborne at that time made the question academic.

The P-80s were held to only CAP patrols and were no more reliable than the Me-262. One of the jets in England even killed its test pilot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krieghund

A 262 would have a hard time of it with unreliable engines......however ifyou had a factory fresh 262 with Ju004A's instead of "B"s it would be a close battle.

Ka-Boom!!!

As stated above the P-80 was no more reliable than the Me-262. It had problems with its Fuel pump and they were all grounded in Jan. 1945 for several months. Major Frederic Borsodi was killed in a crash caused by an engine fire on 28 January 1945, demonstrating YP-80A 44-83026 at RAF Burtonwood.

On 20 October Milo Burcham was killed in a P-80 crash that was caused by failed fuel pump. Toly LeVier was able to get out of the aircraft but it crashed because of a turbine blade that broke. Major Bong was killed by a P-80 when the fuel pump failed.

The point is the P-80 was like all first generation jets and had its own reliability problems when it first came out.

Morai_Milo · 03-08-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krieghund

Let me toss a fact grenade on the fire............

There were six P-80A's stationed in Northern Italy prior to the war's end but poor serviceability the lack of German Jets airborne at that time made the question academic.

- YP-80As 44-83026 and 44-83027 were shipped to England in mid-December 1944

and

- 44-83028 and 44-83029 were shipped to Italy.

The P-80s that went offshore were YP models.

Adler, the P.1101V1 was not completed by the end of Apr '45. It was still many, many months away from production and still had to be test flown. The Americans even thought of having the Germans finish the a/c for them, so they did not have to.

Erich · 03-08-2007, 03:03 PM

not again ! we have beat the pants off the bush with this comparison and it gets nowhere............ wheres Santa when you need em ?

lesofprimus · 03-08-2007, 05:27 PM

Hehe, too true Erich... The next generation 262 would be meeting the P-80, so the comparison is irrelevant... The 262 was and would have been better in a fight..

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-08-2007, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morai_Milo

-
Adler, the P.1101V1 was not completed by the end of Apr '45. It was still many, many months away from production and still had to be test flown. The Americans even thought of having the Germans finish the a/c for them, so they did not have to.

Did I give an exact date that the P.1101 was going to test fly? Nope sure did not. However it was closer to test flight than the Ta-183 and the Ta-183 was scheduled to fly May/June 1945.

JG57_Rall · 03-08-2007, 08:01 PM

What if the F-14 and the Me-262 squared off. Its silly since there were no F-14s in the air during WWII. The Luftwaffe had the Me-262 operational and it was being improved on when the war came to an end. Any allied development of jet fighters would have been behind the development of German jets and the pilots that flew the new allied aircraft would not have had the experience that the German jet pilots had. These what if questions can be interesting but they are no different than saying which is better a Klingon Battle Crusier or a Goa'uld Ha'tak

Morai_Milo · 03-08-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Did I give an exact date that the P.1101 was going to test fly? Nope sure did not. However it was closer to test flight than the Ta-183 and the Ta-183 was scheduled to fly May/June 1945.

No you didn't but you did say: "ready for test flights" which I read as completed > just add gas and a pilot.

Quote:

Both were ready for test flights when the aircraft were captured at the end of the war.

Quote:

The P.1101 was ready for test flight and when the facility was overun.

The P1101 was nowhere near ready but for sure a lot closer than the Ta183. A flight capable engine being a main reason.

Strange that you say the Ta183 was to be ready for test flights in May/June 1945 when by April 1945 all the plants capable of making it had been over-run and only the detailed drawings had been completed with airframe construction not even started. (from what I can find) Bit hard to believe from paper to finished product in ~4-8 weeks.

FLYBOYJ · 03-08-2007, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG57_Rall

What if the F-14 and the Me-262 squared off. Its silly since there were no F-14s in the air during WWII. The Luftwaffe had the Me-262 operational and it was being improved on when the war came to an end. Any allied development of jet fighters would have been behind the development of German jets and the pilots that flew the new allied aircraft would not have had the experience that the German jet pilots had. These what if questions can be interesting but they are no different than saying which is better a Klingon Battle Crusier or a Goa'uld Ha'tak

That is pretty silly.........

Soren · 03-08-2007, 09:43 PM

Morai it may be impossible for you to understand but humans sometimes make mistakes - I'm sure Adler wrote off of memory to begin with.

Jackson · 03-08-2007, 11:19 PM

Well, I read a book 'Jagd Pilot' or something , by the guy who first flew the Me-163 successfully..(an earlier pilot had tried and died)

a great book BTW..

He said the Me262 had two engines, for reliability..
Unfortunately, it would not fly on only one engine.

So the odds of an catastrophic engine failure was doubled..

Major bummer..

So even if the engines were equal in reliability

The odds of a failure were against the 262

syscom3 · 03-09-2007, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Hehe, too true Erich... The next generation 262 would be meeting the P-80, so the comparison is irrelevant... The 262 was and would have been better in a fight..

I dont know if the 262 would have been better in a dogfight, as compared to the P80.

Those two big engines pods slung under the wings would inhibit its instantaneous roll rate.

The 262 was an interceptor, the P80 a dogfighter. Two different beasts for two different requirements.

GregP · 03-09-2007, 12:59 AM

We could "what if" this forever.

Simple fact is thet never fought, so we DON'T know. I'd say the P-80 had the performance edge, but only very slightly.

In these cases, the real winner is usually decided by the pilot skill. The Germans had their best in the jets, and if the U.S.A. had sent jets (I know about the 2 P-80s sent to Italy - no combat), we'd have had our best in them, too.

So ... I'd say that they would have been pretty damned equal with pilots making the difference.

You, of course, are fre to disagree ...

krieghund · 03-09-2007, 01:43 AM

After the war some 262's went to Muroc and were flown by Chuck Yeager and others. He said in his book that he felt the P-80 and 262 handled about the same with no appreciable advantages to either taking into account he only had a few hours left on his 262 engine's TBO.

I agree it would come down to pilot skill.

Parmigiano · 03-09-2007, 04:48 AM

To be precise: the 2 P80 shipped to Italy were based in the deep south, not in the north (Lesina being roughly on the 'heel' of Italy 'boot')

Being the front 400+ miles north and being several US airports available closer to front , it does not look like the USAAF was planning to dogfight with other jets, the P80 location made impossible for them to reach Germany and barely in range to shortly patrol the area where the 3 Arado 234 were flying their recce.

Probably the P80 in Italy were just deployed to test the field logistics for a jet aircraft, not with the intention to mix up with Luftwaffe.