p-80 V Me 262

W@CC0 · 03-09-2007, 04:52 AM

I think the p-80 had a little preformance advantage over the 262. The 2 engines of the 262 must have affected the roll rate and turn radius etc. The mk 108 was also pretty slow firing, and I think this is pretty crucial in a dog fight were planes go from one side to another in a split second.

On the other hand, the germans had allready used the 262 for 3/4 of a year when the first 2 p-80 came to europe, so german jet pilots had practised. They knew the strenghts and weaknesses of their jets in combat. The americans still had to learn this.

So I think that the first dogfights would have been won by the 262, but its pure guessing work.

Tom

FLYBOYJ · 03-09-2007, 06:48 AM

The P-80 weight 1,000 pounds less than the -262. That will effect maneuvability and acceleration. I still believe the p-80 "would of" been more maneuverable than the -262.

Would of, could of , should of - of course we're all guessing.

lesofprimus · 03-09-2007, 07:12 AM

Lemme get my wonderful, all seeing crystal ball out...

FLYBOYJ · 03-09-2007, 07:36 AM

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-09-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG57_Rall

What if the F-14 and the Me-262 squared off.

Are you serious?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-09-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morai_Milo

Strange that you say the Ta183 was to be ready for test flights in May/June 1945 when by April 1945 all the plants capable of making it had been over-run and only the detailed drawings had been completed with airframe construction not even started. (from what I can find) Bit hard to believe from paper to finished product in ~4-8 weeks.

Every source on the matter will say that the aircraft was scheduled for a test flight in May/June 1945 time frame. I will leave it at that because I dont think there is anything that I can say that you will dispute unless it is about Luftwaffe Sucks!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-09-2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

Morai it may be impossible for you to understand but humans sometimes make mistakes - I'm sure Adler wrote off of memory to begin with.

Thats okay Morai will get his too...

Morai_Milo · 03-09-2007, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Thats okay Morai will get his too...

Yup and when I do I will own up and admit I was in error.

What are these 'every source'? So every source says the 'dream world' test flight was for May/June 1945? Reality is different from the 'dream world'.

FLYBOYJ · 03-09-2007, 10:14 AM

"On February 28, 1945, the Luftwaffe High Command examined the various Emergency Fighter proposals and selected the Ta 183 to be developed and produced. Sixteen prototypes were to be built, allowing the tail unit to be interchanged between the Design II and III variations. Of the Versuchs (experimental test series) aircraft the Ta 183 V1-V3 were to be powered by the Jumo 004B turbojet, pending delivery of the He S 011 jet engine. The Ta 183 V4-V14 were 0-series preproduction aircraft and V15-V16 were to be static test aircraft. The first flight of the aircraft was projected for May 1945 but none were completed by April 8, 1945, when British troops captured the Focke-Wulf facilities."

Focke-Wulf Ta 183 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Focke Wulfe Fw Ta-183

Focke-Wulf Ta 183 Luft '46 entry

"On Febuary 27 and 28, 1945, the Emergency Fighter Competition conference was held by the OKL (High Command of the Luftwaffe), and the Ta 183 was chosen to be developed and produced. There were to be sixteen Versuchs (experimental test series) aircraft: the Ta 183 V1-V3 to be powered by the Jumo 004B turbojet, pending delivery of the He S 011 jet engine, the Ta 183 V4-V14 as 0-series preproduction aircraft and V15-V16 as static test aircraft. The maiden flight of the first aircraft was planned for May/June of 1945, and was to test both the Design II and Design III tail configuration. The first production aircraft were scheduled to be completed by October 1945, but no examples of the Ta 183 were completed because on April 8, 1945 British troops captured the Focke-Wulf facilities."

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-09-2007, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morai_Milo

Yup and when I do I will own up and admit I was in error.

As do I...

The difference is I dont pretend to be the all knowing source.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morai_Milo

What are these 'every source'? So every source says the 'dream world' test flight was for May/June 1945? Reality is different from the 'dream world'.

Did you just figure that out?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-09-2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

"On February 28, 1945, the Luftwaffe High Command examined the various Emergency Fighter proposals and selected the Ta 183 to be developed and produced. Sixteen prototypes were to be built, allowing the tail unit to be interchanged between the Design II and III variations. Of the Versuchs (experimental test series) aircraft the Ta 183 V1-V3 were to be powered by the Jumo 004B turbojet, pending delivery of the He S 011 jet engine. The Ta 183 V4-V14 were 0-series preproduction aircraft and V15-V16 were to be static test aircraft. The first flight of the aircraft was projected for May 1945 but none were completed by April 8, 1945, when British troops captured the Focke-Wulf facilities."

Focke-Wulf Ta 183 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Focke Wulfe Fw Ta-183

Focke-Wulf Ta 183 Luft '46 entry

"On Febuary 27 and 28, 1945, the Emergency Fighter Competition conference was held by the OKL (High Command of the Luftwaffe), and the Ta 183 was chosen to be developed and produced. There were to be sixteen Versuchs (experimental test series) aircraft: the Ta 183 V1-V3 to be powered by the Jumo 004B turbojet, pending delivery of the He S 011 jet engine, the Ta 183 V4-V14 as 0-series preproduction aircraft and V15-V16 as static test aircraft. The maiden flight of the first aircraft was planned for May/June of 1945, and was to test both the Design II and Design III tail configuration. The first production aircraft were scheduled to be completed by October 1945, but no examples of the Ta 183 were completed because on April 8, 1945 British troops captured the Focke-Wulf facilities."

Thank you that is what every book in my library on the subject says as well. Sources are wrong though because someone else has read something different.

Ofcourse we all know as Morai so kindly put out for us that things dont work out that way.

davparlr · 03-09-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Thank you that is what every book in my library on the subject says as well. Sources are wrong though because someone else has read something different.

Ofcourse we all know as Morai so kindly put out for us that things dont work out that way.

I have an issue here. My prime source has pictures of a Ju 287V-1 flying, both a Go 229V-3 and a P 1101 in build stages, but I have never seen any part of a Ta-183 that was built. I suspect it never really made it past the preliminary drawing and wind tunnel model stage. It took 6 mos. for Lockheed to design, build and fly the P-80, and that was using conventional aerodynamics, something the Ta-183 was advancing. I think it was a pipe dream to fly in May/June of 45. More probably, late 45, in early 46. And that doesn't mean that an effective warplane would have emerged.

Good move on closing down the Spiteful thread. It was very interesting on the discussion of high speed propeller flight. Then it went berserk!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-09-2007, 02:00 PM

You are more than right correct. The Ta-183 more than likely would not have flown in May/June 1945. The sources only say that it was scheduled to fly May/June 1945. This is when the Luftwaffe wanted it to fly. Would have, Could have, Should have....did not.

pbfoot · 03-09-2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W@CC0

I think the p-80 had a little preformance advantage over the 262. The 2 engines of the 262 must have affected the roll rate and turn radius etc. The mk 108 was also pretty slow firing, and I think this is pretty crucial in a dog fight were planes go from one side to another in a split second.

On the other hand, the germans had allready used the 262 for 3/4 of a year when the first 2 p-80 came to europe, so german jet pilots had practised. They knew the strenghts and weaknesses of their jets in combat. The americans still had to learn this.

So I think that the first dogfights would have been won by the 262, but its pure guessing work.

Tom

I believe the 2 wing mounted engines would enhance aerobatics with a competent pilot by adjusting power on one engine . qoute from wiki about Janusz Żurakowski
." Acknowledged as one of the best aerobatic pilots in the UK, he gave a spectacular display at the Farnborough Air Show in June 1946, with the Martin-Baker MB 5, a superlative piston-engined fighter, designed too late to enter production.

In 1947, he was employed as an experimental pilot by Gloster Aircraft Company. In the following years, he became one of the world's most famous experimental and aerobatics pilots (he developed a new aerobatics maneuver, the "Zurabatic Cartwheel" which held the audience captivated as he suspended the Gloster Meteor G-7-1 prototype he was flying, in a vertical cartwheel at the 1951 Farnborough Air Show). Announcers shouted out, "Impossible!"

syscom3 · 03-09-2007, 04:49 PM

PB, youre forgetting that those early jet engines on the -262 flamed out due to them being extremely sensitive to quick throttle changes.

Differential thrust wouldnt work on the -262 because of this.

The 262 has the advantage in the top speed and probably dive speed.

P80 would have the roll rate advantage and superior endurance.

As for weapons.... I would say the 6 x .50's or even a pair of 20mm's would have the advantage over the 30mm's simply due to rate of fire and flatter trajectory.