p-80 V Me 262

pbfoot · 03-09-2007, 06:21 PM

[quote=syscom3;231250]PB, youre forgetting that those early jet engines on the -262 flamed out due to them being extremely sensitive to quick throttle changes.

Differential thrust wouldnt work on the -262 because of this.

QUOTE] I didn't say it wasn't going to be more interesting
aerobatics wasn't the 262's strength and I believe the P80 morphed into the T33 which was highly aerobatic

davparlr · 03-09-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

The 262 has the advantage in the top speed and probably dive speed.

I have seen this comment before and I don't know where it comes from. Every source I have seen shows the P-80A with a higher top speed than the Me-262. My main sources shows the P-80A capable of 558 mph and the Me-262A-1a with a top speed of 540 mph. Now, the P-80 speed is at s.l. and the Me-262 speed is at 19k, so there is no one to one comparison. However, the P-80 cannot be said to be slower than the Me-262.

As far as dive speed, I cannot argue as I have no data to support one way or another. I think the Me-262 may have had a better Mach limitation.

FLYBOYJ · 03-09-2007, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Differential thrust wouldnt work on the -262 because of this.

Any twin, jet or recip with engines slung under the wing will experience differental thrust and can actually be flown with varying throttle inputs. On a "production" -262 however I'd rather tame cobras than try it.

syscom3 · 03-09-2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Any twin, jet or recip with engines slung under the wing will experience differental thrust and can actually be flown with varying throttle inputs. On a "production" -262 however I'd rather tame cobras than try it.

With 1944/45 vintage jet engines...... thats pushing the luck of the airplane and pilot to some degree!

Jackson · 03-09-2007, 08:49 PM

The 262 was designed to take out bombers, it is not a dog fighter..

>maneuverable

They were shot down by 'top cover' P-51D's....

What is more revealing is the fact that Allied fighters did, in reality, shoot down Me262s in air-to-air combat. The speed advantage of the Me262 was routinely negated by American escort fighters by the simple method of a height advantage – they knew what height the Me262s would need to be at to attack the bombers, and judged it from that.

Plus they took forever to 'spool' up..

By the end of the war Germany was considering using Hitler youth as jet pilots. Nevermind they did not have the 'gas' to even train them. This is in a period when the standards of Luftwaffe pilots was in decline?

So give the P-80 8,000 feet and think about all those P-51's shoting down the Me-262

Answer..

Who is faster and who can fly higher and then you can call the winner..

alternative view

The Messerschmitt Me-262 Schwalbe / Sturmvogel

The Me-262s were then shipped to the US on the Royal Navy "jeep" carrier HMS REAPER for further evaluation at Wright Field in Ohio. The tests there included a competitive fly-off against a Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star jet fighter that demonstrated the general superiority of the Me-262.

lesofprimus · 03-09-2007, 09:20 PM

3 singular posts in a row is a no no Jack.... Im combining them... Next time, edit ur previous post...

Jackson · 03-09-2007, 09:24 PM

ME 262 flight, rebuilt with modern engines

Me262 at the ILA2006 in Berlin (original sound) - Google Video

where is the delete button boss

pbfoot · 03-09-2007, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Any twin, jet or recip with engines slung under the wing will experience differental thrust and can actually be flown with varying throttle inputs. On a "production" -262 however I'd rather tame cobras than try it.

Yeah I remember the P38 thread on that but just thought I'd hilight it with the Meteor tale. Also I think I'd prefer to be in the P80 with a flame out

davparlr · 03-09-2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson

The Me-262s were then shipped to the US on the Royal Navy "jeep" carrier HMS REAPER for further evaluation at Wright Field in Ohio. The tests there included a competitive fly-off against a Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star jet fighter that demonstrated the general superiority of the Me-262.

A test report no one seems to have seen.

mad_max · 03-09-2007, 11:59 PM

From the handbooks and such that I have.

262 would do 513 mph at sealevel and had a mach limit of .82 to .83 depending
on which data you look at.

FWIW

Civettone · 03-10-2007, 03:01 AM

Jackson, the Me 262 was not designed to take out bombers. When it was designed (day) bombers were of little threat to the Germans. Now if you would have said the Me 262 was developed into a fighter to take out bombers...

And there is still a question as to how many Me 262 were actually shot down by Mustangs in air combat. The Russian I-16 also shot down the much faster but less manoeuvrable Bf 109...

Kris

Jackson · 03-10-2007, 07:03 AM

disputes are to be expected..

The link I gave discusses German fears of the B-29 and it's rush into production.

// Me-262 s where shot down by the Russians also.

I read the book by the first guy to successfully fly the ME-163..

Which came out earlier than the Me-262..

He was later in Galland's Me-262 squadron.

The Me163 was really made to get up fast and attack bombers in a 'point' defense. Not many Allied fighters would have been over Germany for any reason but to escort heavies. (recon?)

I submit the Me-163 sole purpose was against to protect against bombers.

So, the concern was there..IMHO

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 03-10-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson

The link I gave discusses German fears of the B-29 and it's rush into production.

Erich has some good info on that, but I think it will be a bit different than that link. Erichs info comes directly from the German archives.

We have some archives here in Nurnberg. I am going to see if I can check them out.

FLYBOYJ · 03-10-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson

The tests there included a competitive fly-off against a Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star jet fighter that demonstrated the general superiority of the Me-262.

Not Really...

The test at Wright Paterson were run by legendary test pilot Al Boyd. The USAAF compared the P-80 and Me-262 concluding: "Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (907 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter." The P-80 handled better and had better visibility.

The Army Air Force also tested an example of the Me 262A-1a/U3 (US flight evaluation serial FE-4012), an unarmed photo reconnaissance version, which was fitted with a fighter nose and given an overall smooth finish. It was used for performance comparisons against the P-80. During testing in May-August 1946, the aircraft completed eight flights spanning four hours and 40 minutes. Testing was discontinued after four engine changes were required during the course of the tests, culminating in two single-engine landings." There were NO combat maneuvers done aircraft vs. aircraft.

This is referenced in Walter J. Boyne's book Arrow to the Future. and from Winkipedia.

For what ever reason this information was suppressed for a number of years, perhaps not to embarrass US aircraft manufacturers. While the test showed some superiority aspect of the Me 262 I think the reliability factor comes in to play as well....

Jackson · 03-10-2007, 12:54 PM

I was trying to give an alternative view..

The flavor of my own posts concure with yours..

But the clarity which you add to it is good.