P40: The underated underdog, or just behind the times

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep!

[Gnomey]

Very true V-1710.

[pbfoot]

the p 40 like the hurricane was a jack of all trades but master of none a tough dependable ac

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by V-1710

The 109 was certainly a fine aircraft, but I think it was safe to say it's day was over by 1945. As the best thing about the P-40 in the beginning of the war for the USAAC was it's availability, conversely the best thing about the 109 for the Luftwaffe at the end of the war was it's availability.

Yes it was at its limit by 1945 but it did not matter when by then they had the Fw-190D, Ta-152H and soon C's, and by then the Ta-183's and P.1011s would be rolling out soon.

The P-40 was a good design and a good all around "light fighter". It however was not a great design because as posted by others it had no wear to go. I sort of compare it to todays F-5.

[V-1710]

I think it did matter for the Luftwaffe. Although the Ta-152 might have been the ultimate piston engined fighter, it and the other promising German designs were a case of too little, too late. Remember that the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star would have probably have entered combat in late 1945 (the 31st. Squadron of the 412th. Fighter Group had been operating the P-80 in the U.S. since late 1944). Late in the war, it was all the German aircraft industry could do to produce existing designs, which they did in substantial numbers despite the difficulties they were facing.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes it was too little too late however the Fw-190 was clearly still in its prime.

[carpenoctem1689]

Damn right it was. It had places to go, and would have kept going probably in the ground attack role with ever decreasing numbers into early 1947 if the war had dragged on, even though jets were coming into service on both sides that were fighters, bombers, dive bombers and ground attack aircraft that would have made its design obsolete. The Ta-152H could have put up a fight against the P-80. Hell P-51's shot down Me-262's, Ta-152s could shoot down a P-80.

[Sal Monella]

Weren't most of the Me-262's shot down through allied aircraft loitering over their bases and smacking them as they came in, low on fuel?

[plan_D]

The vast majority were lost on the airfields. The Allied airmen discussed time and time again ways to defeat the Me-262 in combat. But the main problem was to dogfight one must drop his tanks so after the combat, the Mustangs would have to break-off and go home. In that way, they might stop the jets from breaking through the fighter screen but then the fighter screen disappears and the German conventional aircraft move in on the unprotected bomber formation for the kill.

Mustang pilots were informed not to attack the jets unless directly threatened. So, most of the time the Allied airmen would have to wait until the jets had finished their mission - which at most would be about three high speed passes on the bomber formation - then once they had seen off the conventional aircraft they would hunt the jets on the ground.

Another time was when they were taking off and landing. Which was always a hazard because of protecting German fighters and the heavy concentration of light AA that covered all German airfields.

I'm sure Erich will correct any mistakes I've made.

[FLYBOYJ]

To add to Ds excellent comment, early jet engines had horrible spool up times. Two things about flying these jets, they are hard to slow down and hard to speed up, in other words you can't get behind the aircraft. Because of this there were many accidents where pilots landed long, landed short, lost direction control while the aircraft was "floating" because they landed long or came in with too much airspeed, and didn't have enough power to execute a go-around when the landing didn't look good. Combine this with marauding fighters that out number you 3 or 4 to one and you had a recipe for disaster.

I also read that P-51 pilots, if attacked by the -262 would just continue to turn and sometime could turn into and inside the jet. It seems that its turning ability was not that great especially if was being operated at speeds closer to the Mustang. Does any one also have information or comments about this?

[Gnomey]

Good points FBJ and pD. I agree with them, many 262's were lost during take off or landing and add to that the enemy fighters loitering, landing and taking off would not have been a pleasent experience.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

yes and i too have always heard the -262 didn't exactily have the smallest turning circle..........

[MacArther]

When did 262s and P40's get jumbled together????? Back to topic please.

[carpenoctem1689]

Right, well where i was taking it was that the P-40 had some room to grow, but that growth wasnt capitalized on, or forced through because there were so many alternatives, and forcing a design that dated back to the mid thirties just wasnt needed, when something new and revolutionary could come about soon enough. When the P-51, P-47, F4U, and newer and newer versions of the P-38 were coming out, or on the drawing board, why change somehting that can only go so far, instead of start fresh with something new...thats my mentality why a true successor never came out.

[V-1710]

I think you could say the P-60 was an attempt to improve the basic P-40, but the performance of the P-60 was a disappointment. Same for the P-46, a lightweight 'cleaned up' P-40 that somehow didn't perform any better than a P-40D/E. For whatever reason, the P-40N was as good as this airframe ever got. If that was because of some inherant design charateristics, or the fact that Donovan Berlin left Curtiss, who knows. Also, there was some controversy about Curtiss getting large P-40 contracts until mid-'44 (Truman Comission), but remember that the P-40 was extensively used as an advanced trainer, and no wrongdoing on the part of Curtiss was even proven.