PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by BombTaxi

I stand corrected...although I was almost right on the squadron!

Remember BT - almost only counts in horseshoes, handgranades, hatchetfights and nuclear war!

[the lancaster kicks ass]

good point......

and thanks for the extra info..........

[R Leonard]

Well, not World War II, but . . .

On 10 September 1952, Captain Jesse G. Folmar, USMC (VMA-312), in an F4U-4B (BuNo 62927) shot down a MiG-15 off the North Korean coast near Chinnampo. MiG pilot was seen to bail out, afire, and the MiG observed to crash into the sea. Moments later another MiG shot down Folmar. He bailed out and was rescued by a SAR plane, called by his wingman, Lieutenant Walter E Daniels, USMC, spending about eight minutes in the water.

On 20 June 1965 a four-plane RESCAP division of VA-25 A-1H’s off USS Midway led by Lieutenant Commander Edwin Greenhouse, USN, was jumped by a North Vietnamese Mig-17 north of Thanh Hoa. Initiating a section-to-section “Thach Weave,” while running for the coast, they were able to sucker the MiG in close. Lieutenant Clinton Johnson, USNR, in BuNo 137523, and Lieutenant (jg) Charles W. Hartman, III, USN, in BuNo 139786, got the drop on MiG as it approached the other section and gunned it down in an head-on encounter. Each received ½ credit for the kill.

On 9 October 1966 Lieutenant (jg) William T. Patton, USN, flying a VA-176 A-1H (BuNo 137543) in a four-plane RESCAP off USS Intrepid shot down an interfering MiG-17 near Hanoi. Kill was observed by his section leader, Lieutenant Peter Russell, USN.


Regards,

Rich

[Udet]

With the sole exception of nine (9) guncamera shots from USA fighters i have i would say the bulk -if not all- of those jet claims filed by USAAF veterans are pure tales.

The guncamera im referring to shows 9 jets indeed getting pounded by enemy fighters.

Amazingly all nine shots i owe show the German jet at very low altitude with the undercarriage displayed for landing. In two of those shots you can clearly see the paved runway and even trucks in the back ground. In some others you can see trees, thickets, etc.

Perhaps a few more jets damaged by a bomber box defensive barrage got intercepted and shot down, but the allied assertion of P-51s, P-47s or whatever plane managing to outfly the German jet is in my view a Grimm fairy tale.

Also what i do find quite strange is the fact some Me262s were captured intact at the end of the war and no mock-dogfights involving the Schwalbe and the "perfect" P-51 were made to attempt proving the very common allied babbling saying that when the jet turned "it was piece of cake".

Couldn´t it be the easiest and coolest way to show the world your alleged marvels such as the P-51 could deal with the Me262 in a dogfight?

Make a mock-dogfight and have it filmed god damn it.

Or perhaps such tests were carried out but the USAAF decided to either modify or conceal the actual outcome of such tests...who knows, they have done stuff like that. Why not to do it with the jet.

"Oh, well...the machine surely was fast...but our gallant and honorable pilots could handle it with relative east...whenever it turned, we fried the hun..."

Reminds me of the funny British testing of a captured Bf109G fitted with underwing gondola cannons to prove their Spitfire was "better".
Not even when compared to the gondola equipped Bf109 G could the Spitfire prove any significant and defintive "superiority".

[wmaxt]

Udet,

If the 262 pilot was on final or in a turn where the jet made a wider turn it is possible with a goog guess as to the destination an intercept could be accomplished. A lot also depends on awarness of the jet pilot and/or the situation of the jet, out of fuel, 1 engine out etc. When your on final and your out of gas your a sitting duck in every way!

I've never heard or seen a pilots account that even hinted at out performing a jet of any kind at anytime. Always the account mentioned something that put the jet into the performance envelope of the piston engined fighter. Many were caught landing or taking off. Given the Flight time available to the 163 and 262 and the swarms of Allied fighters at the time and place the jet/rocket planes HAD to be used it was inviteable that it happened.

wmaxt

[evangilder]

I have never heard stories of allied fighters "outflying" the 262. I don't know where you get that. Sure they got them while landing, they certainly could not have caught them in a chase now, could they? Also, if in a head to head situation, it's who lands the shots. Lucky, perhaps, but still a kill.

[mosquitoman]

It was normally while the jets were landing that they got shot down, one plane would have a strafe, then the next until it went down. I don't envy the Me-262 pilots in that situation

[Udet]

I understand some of your points very well.

...Likewise, i would not envy the situation of those USAAF fighter pilots who got caught by the jet.

I happen to have one guncamera film that in accordance with the opinion of a group of very knowledged gentlemen comes from a Me 262.

I just had it there but could not tell what German plane was responsible for the kill.

All i can tell you is i am talking about an authentic horror film. The end of that poor Mustang pilot can be any fighter pilot´s worst nightmare. Like an outbreak of a million nightmares stored too long in the darkest and sulphurous cellars of hell.

I call it the perfect move of the predator. (i) Prey is spotted, (ii) the chase and (iii) the kill.

It starts with the camera showing a distant enemy plane: first you can not determine what kind of plane is it.

After some more seconds the plane in the camera begins taking shape: it is a Mustang. The gentlemen who anaylized it, concluded no piston plane, friend and foe alike, could have covered such distance in the time the plane fitted with camera did. They first calculated the distance between both planes at the moment the plane first appears in the camera; calculating time elapsed between two events: (i) first appearance in the camera and (ii) the virtual grab -kill- what was followed.

The Mustang attempted evasive action by conducting a close turn: the German plane kept inside of it until the Mustang filled the camera; what followed was all guns blazing and the Mustang got literally puliverized: flashes, smoke, pieces and debris of all sizes flying alongside the still flying but dead P-51.

The cockpit got opened aft by the German shells, the way you´d do with an egg to get the white and the yolk out of the shell, and you can get a 1 second glimpse of the pilot´s body in motion alongside with the pieces and debris of his plane. His body with all limbs horribly twisted.

It is so disturbing i have not watched it in months -i do intend watching it again-.

Udet,

There is at least one very well confirmed case of a P-51 shooting down a 262 in real combat. I doubt it's a "fairy tale" as the 262 had killed a P-51 and got caught by a lucky shot from his wingman. I believe it exploded, and it was witnessed going down by multiple pilots.

I'll try to find the account and post it.

=S=

Lunatic

[Erich]

Well the famous ace Nowotny of the Kommando was shot down in combat by two P-51's and it wasn't upon landing either. the 357th and 20th fg pilots shared the claim although it appeared for some time that Fiebelkorn should of been given credit of the 20th fg.

Yes there were many air combat incidences with 262's falling to the P-51 and P-47's as well as 262's being shot down on landing approach.

more later come sunday ?

My friend Dick Hewitt of the 78th fg shot down 2 in April of 45 on the same date, one of them bailed out, a Ritterkreuzträger, the other crashed to his death. Friend Huie Lamb also of the 78th fg shot 1 262 down in his P-47.

[FLYBOYJ]

Great stuff guys! Erich, can't wait to see what you have!

[Udet]

My friend Erich!

This is one of the rare occassions i disagree with you.

Actual causes of Nowotny´s death remain uncertain. From all accounts and sources i have managed to consult i can tell no undisputable evidence has emerged. I am aware of the guys allegedly responsible for shooting him down though.

Most accounts agree his engines malfunctioned and caught fire at low altitude, he then lost control of his plane and crashed. That Mustangs were nearby during the crash of his plane does not imply he got shot down by the enemy.

That it might have happened the way the allies say can be true, however it is not proved.

That is another anomaly observed in the allies: to invariably credit the death of an experte to any of their aces. The direction of such assertions is rather simple: "even their greatest pilots perished at the hands of our superior, gallant, heroic and noble pilots".

Some guys here give a great deal of weight to the German propaganda during the war. They apparently fail to acknowledge both the USA and UK had prolific propaganda systems as well.

There is, however, one point: the propaganda of the Reich ceased functioning by May 9, 1945. The propaganda of the victors continued working after the German surrender. Furthermore, it is still working in the present day world.



I stick to my first posting within this thread: i would put into doubt the bulk of the information the allies have issued on the performance of the jet.

They captured a fistful of fully operational jets when Germany surrendered. Many of those were shipped to the USA where tests were carried out. Where are the results of those testings?

I mean the USAAF had bully guys returning to base from combat missions claiming the destruction of jets!

Wouldn´t it be of great interest to the USAAF command to witness themselves what was it like to see their marvelous perfect flawless wonderful dashy fighters in a dogfight with the jets?

A duly FILMED and RECORDED mock dogfight of a P-51 or P-47 against the Me 262 would have been the definitive evidence. Oddly, there is no such evidence available.

With this i mean that after Germany´s surrender the allies had the elements served at table to prove their assetions. If they were so convinced on their undisputed superiority on virtually every aspect of warfare technology, why did they waste the opportunity to prove it?

Or perhaps they carried out similar testings but the outcome was not so serving and rather decided to do whatever with the reports...conceal the results, turn them "classified", or perhaps they simply resorted to write whatever they wanted to on the reports.

That is one of the advantages of being in the victorious side. Being the victor of a war empowers you to do whatever the burning hell you want to do.

What are you going to respond on this RG_Lunatic?

[Erich]

ground control at Kommando Nowotny/III./JG 54 confirmed that Walters last words were "I have been hit"

He shot down 1 P-51 and then was set upon by 1 then 2 P-51's with his engines and cockpit being hit........

Udet we have had long discussions on this very subject. simply put the P-51 was no match at a flat out race at any altitude. And true many were shot down on landing, fewer on take-off as the Luftwaffe started to provide multi-use Flakvierlings on the few basses associated with jet activity. The 262 was weak on it's turning radius and due to speed was wide which the P-51 pilots took the initiative and closed within, not just one but many below and above. The jet pilot was at the mercy of the P-51's unless able to have the otion of lfying straight away. The fule liones in the jet engine nacelles were weak and were easily fractured by even 1 .50 round and in that case too much was rendered on the other performing engine, the P-51's were able then to close the gap.

In the observance of the last war months over the Reich the 262 was no match for hundreds of P-51's just looking for 1-2 jets to set upon as the jet zoomed down and then upward through a US heavy bomber formations. Imagine the jet pilots no-one coming to their aid while at least 10-12 P-51s from several different US fighter groups converging to take out this 1 jet, while the other jet may have had a chance to escape or the same scenario appeared time and time again. Yes the Allied escort pilots had guts and were quite a cocky bunch till this day. The jet pilots were brave and new the odds were far against them but they did their duty knowing full well even with their speeds beyond anything the US could come up with could only dream of shooting down maybe 1-2 B-17's or B-24's during 1 mission knowing that dropping the landing gear at their base and even warned of "Indianers" in the area they soon could be a sitting duck target.
the proof is that the P-51 was shot down by Me 262's and that the 262 was shot down by the P-51 upon landing, taking off and in aerial combat. The proof is in the cine films and there are plenty of them still left from boths sides.

v/r E ♪

[Erich]

to continue this in a slightly different light

for the U.S. AF


4th fg 7 ............... Me 262's
20th fg 5 1/2
31st fg 7
52nd fg 14
78th fg 11
325th fg 1
332nd fg 3
339th fg 14
352nd fg 5 1/2
353rd fg 6
354th fg 4
355th fg 4
356th fg 2
357th fg 18
359th fg 5
361st fg 6
364th fg 1 1/2
479th fg 5

there were 118 1/2 Me 262's shot down, 12 Ar 234's and 5 Me 163 Komets.

this is what was listed in official US kill archiv's but were they really confirmed ? time will tell and maybe we can delve ever deeper. I personally own several 8th US AF fg histories and of course have met and interviewed several that have taken out the Me 262......

let the research begin !!

♪

[DAVIDICUS]

I read some where that the first Me-262 was forced down by P-47's of the 78th FG on August 28, 1944

Depiction below:
B-24's of the 489th Bomb Group were sent to destroy the rail marshaling yards at Bielefeld in Germany.
They were very surprised to see the Messersmidt Me-262's over the target.
P-47's were escorting the Group, and no losses were recorded on either side.