PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS

Udet · 01-20-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

he was a ***** !, seriously with the inexperience of so many in 1945 due to the shortage of well trained "kids" at the stick, no good man hours in the air without getting hammered by US/RAF fighters. have at least a dozen personal interviews of P-51 vets that mentioned similar experiences over the Reich in engagements with 190's and 109's. have not heard as of yet any pilots of 262's jumping ship. Failed parachute yes ...........

hate to say this but will.........have found that for some it was better to fight another day let alone just were too plain scared and looked for a way out via the chute

Erich has also commented on accounts that showed B-17 crews would abandon ship even before the closing in Fw 190s began firing.

Udet · 01-25-2007, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeB

I don't know, are you responding to my post? Let me ask you more directly, have you read "Me262 Combat Diary"? I think we should keep researching even on topics that other people have covered; my own research (not on WWII so much) is on topics others have covered; I want to find out more; I assume your interest and approach is the same.

But this topic, 262 actual losses v Allied claims, has been *basically* covered (Foreman and Harvey, and also quite a bit in Smith and Creek's series on the Me-262) and it's pretty clear the USAAF piston fighter claims against the 262's were reasonably accurate (by WWII standards), they shot down quite a lot of 262's, and that the 262's didn't shoot down very many piston fighters. We're not IMHO actually waiting for the basic accounting comparison of piston fighter claims and Me-262 losses. I'm sure further research such as yours would clarify certain incidents, but the basic situation has been researched and published, some time ago.

Now as to why the P-51 (which scored the bulk of piston kills against jets) scored a high kill ratio over Me-262 when the 262 was a fundamentally more advanced airplane...You're right in a completely even match up where Me-262mainly sought to shoot down piston fighters, and where they had equal or superior numbers, and where the P-51's would usually have to break off action first for lack of fuel, then the result could have been very different. But that wasn't the historical situation.

Joe

Very interesting set of comments of there, although i will dispute your argument "the basic situation has been researched and published, some time ago". There are still issues to be thoroughly approached, and a book that was published 12 years ago might become junk in the near future...but more importantly there are things that happened during the last 5 or 6 months of the war we might never know of at all, ever.

So in the end all you are saying is that the Soviet "partisans" of the Korean War claim the USAF guys did manipulate information regarding the actual causes for their losses during such conflict...and that basically you agree with what 2 guys who wrote one book say regarding the performance of the Me 262....so you discovered the Russians lie (which does not surprise me at all) and that 2 guys who wrote such book regarding the jet already hit the nail.

but what is it with that comment "the people using untrue or unproven statements to refer to another war"?

Erich · 01-25-2007, 04:43 PM

from the cebudanderson site covering Robert winks Me 262 jet kill on January 15, 1945 the only real action of the day. 357th fighter group

The Squadron was at 15K feet when I spotted a lone aircraft doing slow-rolls on the deck flying in a direction away from the airfield. There were patches of snow on the ground, and the aircraft was visible whenever it overflew a patch of snow. I called it into Major Peterson but he was not able to locate it, so he gave me permission to hit it. By this time the bogey had reversed its direction and was coming back toward the airfield. I dropped my external wing fuel tanks at 15K feet, and rolled over into a near vertical dive...5 degrees of flaps with the throttle cut full back. I was closing very fast in a picture perfect combat curve, and when he came into range, I hit him from the high-rear with all six fifties' 240 rounds, right in the cockpit area. The plane caught fire, half-rolled onto its back, and dove right into the ground, and exploded. From some point behind me, probably not fifty feet away, I heard Pete Peterson say "Nice shooting!" He was right there, camera and all, just in case!

Within seconds I had pointed the nose of my plane into the heavens,...upped flaps... and it seemed that I was being helped along by the Germans exploding 20 & 37 mm rounds behind me. They were everywhere around me, when I discovered that I could not hear the sound of my engine! It was windmilling! No power! NO GAS!, you fool, you dropped the external wing tanks without switching to your internal tanks. SWITCH IT!...and the prop was turning so fast that it must have sucked about ten foot of air lock right out of the fuel line in seconds, and we passed through the 15K foot altitude level somewhere around the speed of sound. Or so I was praying!

With the speed of the dive and the short burst of 240 rounds, I was not certain that it was a Me-262 until I landed in England, and Pete Peterson confirmed it.

Pete Peterson could have taken that kill instead of allowing me to do it. It was his prerogative, as Squadron Leader, and I would have thought non-the-less of him, for doing so. But he gave it to me, and that victory qualified me as an Ace. Pete finished combat as a triple-Ace, but he was much more than that among the pilots of the 364th Fighter Squadron, and the 357th Fighter Group.

Captain Bob Winks flying P-51, "Trusty Rusty"

Matt308 · 01-25-2007, 05:34 PM

Great story Erich.

Erich · 01-25-2007, 05:49 PM

yes I luv these first hand accounts.

January 16th 1945 : no air activity against jets but the 4th fg with their P-51's strafed the airfield at Neuburg housing 262's of II./KG(J) 54 and 1 was destroyed by .50's.

January 17, 45 : Hauptmann Peter Eder with 9./JG 7 pops 1 B-17 possibly from the 351st bomb group.

January 18, 45 : an Me 262 damaged severely due to a flap accident crashes upon landing.

FLYBOYJ · 01-25-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

So in the end all you are saying is that the Soviet "partisans" of the Korean War claim the USAF guys did manipulate information regarding the actual causes for their losses during such conflict...and that basically you agree with what 2 guys who wrote one book say regarding the performance of the Me 262....so you discovered the Russians lie (which does not surprise me at all) and that 2 guys who wrote such book regarding the jet already hit the nail.

Not to go off subject but there's been a lot of discussion recently of Soviet claims during the Korean war. I don't have exact numbers but the Russians claimed something like 650 F-86s during the Korean War. A total of 650 F-86s actually cycled through Korea, so we know the Soviet's claims are way out of this world on that claim. I also remember reading that they claimed something like 180 F-80s. That was about the entire F-80 strength in Korea! The USAF admits to something like 78 F-86s lost in air-to-air combat with another 225 or so lot to other causes. The USAF Claimed over 700 Migs, the Soviets admit to 345. Let's say at least half of those 225 F-86 losses were actual air-to-air losses (113). Combine those with the 75 and it gives a grand total of 345 Migs to 188 F-86s, that's still almost 2 to 1 USAF vs. Soviets, and that's using the Soviets own admitted loss numbers!. With all this said there is still no way to accurately divide the kills by country. With that all said in Korea it's my opinion that the F-86 vs the Mig 15 with Soviets, Chinese and Koreans combined probably had a conservative 4 to 1 kill ratio. Believing anything else is just buying into old Soviet propaganda...

Udet · 01-25-2007, 09:31 PM

Interesting comments flyboy! Although my knowledge regarding the Korean war is superficial now i learn something (also that is why i say i am not surprised to know the soviets lied -and possibly no one should-)

FLYBOYJ · 01-26-2007, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

Interesting comments flyboy! Although my knowledge regarding the Korean war is superficial now i learn something (also that is why i say i am not surprised to know the soviets lied -and possibly no one should-)

Thanks Udet - I know we (the West) have been enlightened with new information regarding Soviet Pilots in Korea since the 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union. Although many old Korean War vets have come foward to confirm what was already known, I believe a lot of the "newer" stories by some of these guys and authors who document their claims is nothing more than repeated Soviet propaganda carried down over the years and it's apparent by the the claims made by the Soviets. There is no denying that US (UN) claims were also exaggerated but if you put it in perspective the US (UN) air-to-air victory claims are a lot more believable than some of the BS put out by the Soviets. Bottom line Soviet lied.

Photoshop Jockey · 01-31-2007, 03:58 PM

Hi, guys. My name's Dan Zoernig. I'm an aviation illustrator and found this thread during some research for a project I'm working on. 7/29/44 Art Jeffrey flying a P-38J shot down an Me 163, which was the first of the type to be claimed by the Allies. Has anybody mentioned 163 shootdowns over the last 25 pages of this thread? I read the first 3 pages, but then skipped the rest. Very interesting material, just not enough time.

Best,

Dan

Erich · 01-31-2007, 04:37 PM

Dan :

there is always time ...... just kick back and relax.

no you won't find any of the 5 claims mentioned of Me 163's as they were not of consequence during the air war over the Reich. I'd like to stick with the Me 262A as well as possibly the Ar 234 at some point as they contributed to the Luftwaffe war efforts, or at least the Luftwaffe thought so .........

welcome aboard

E ~

Erich · 02-07-2007, 01:02 PM

just a teaser ........... more coming

the pilot of the above P-51 "Tar Baby" is still alive

twoeagles · 02-07-2007, 01:06 PM

Beautiful, Erich! A moment in history frozen forever. I can't get enough
color wartime photo's.

Erich · 02-07-2007, 01:47 PM

I should of shown this one first as this Stang was repainted to the previous colour work. the pilot of this Stang is also alive. note the pilots pet Wolf pic on the fuselage .............. YES !

more on the way . . . ........ ...

delcyros · 02-07-2007, 03:19 PM

Can´t help, it´s all going to be great stuff, Erich.

And did I ever mentioned that the -51 was nothing short of a beauty?
wow, authentic, great shots.

Chingachgook · 02-07-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photoshop Jockey

Hi, guys. My name's Dan Zoernig. I'm an aviation illustrator and found this thread during some research for a project I'm working on. 7/29/44 Art Jeffrey flying a P-38J shot down an Me 163, which was the first of the type to be claimed by the Allies. Has anybody mentioned 163 shootdowns over the last 25 pages of this thread? I read the first 3 pages, but then skipped the rest. Very interesting material, just not enough time.

Best,

Dan

I am not really here...

But while I am not here I should tell you (as best I can remember) something that a Sherman tank commander told me many years ago (sorry no real sources here other than his name - Joe Shlickman - he was head of NYC Transit when I knew him).

Joe said that they had entered Germany from Belgium early '45. He and his tanks were in a wide open area. Overhead they saw a tail-less "jet" that attacked four (4) P-47s at near ground level. The "jet" would loop down and shoot and then loop back up again after each attack, repeating four times and downing ALL FOUR P-47s.