PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS

plan_D · 05-13-2005, 05:38 AM

I've read that the first Me-262 was downed by a P-47 too.

Great signature by the way, Davidicus.

KraziKanuK · 05-13-2005, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

I've read that the first Me-262 was downed by a P-47 too.

That's debatable. Lauer's 262 was hit by the 47s as he was putting down in a crash landing as he had run out of fuel. Lauer survived the crash landing. The 78th pilots were Myers and Croy.

The first true 262 lost in air combat was shot down in flames by Spitfire IXs of 401 RCAF. The 262 pilot was H-C Butmann in WNr 170093 of 3./KG51.

plan_D · 05-13-2005, 07:08 AM

Erich, do you know how many fighters the Me-262 shot down?

delcyros · 05-13-2005, 07:47 AM

Are we talking about claims or kills?
I doubt you will find a whole list of confimed kills of Me-262 either.
I think, RG has checked this matter in detail and posted some 300+ arial victories of the Me-262 somewhere. In general, I doubt that the US/UK/RCAAF/SU loss lists are correct and avaiable to verify the claims. Even if losses match (esspecially US, since these are accessable, god thanks!) claims, they are often connected to other reasons than damage inflyted by Me-262 (the same was done in Korea: engine failure, midaircollision, plane running out of fuel and so on instead of the MiGs, which inflicted the damage..).
While I do not have sources to prove, I believe that Me-262 fighter kills are surprisingly low, since this jet was a bomber interceptor.
Erich, can you name the other SU pilots, which claim to destroy a Me-262?This would interest me particularly.
By the way, what is known about the US and British/Canadian pilots, who managed to get one of these rare He-162 kills? According to german sources there must have been between 5 and 8...

Erich · 05-13-2005, 10:25 AM

so many questions so little time.....

I can give you a run down of all the US claims but that will take months as well as all the RAF claims.

since not all the Me 262 units have histories it is impossible to cross check all, and in fact JG 7 although covered in an excellent history both US/German language it does not cover all claims and losses either, as their still are some gaps.

118 seems to be confirmed but even I doubt it. Will post some comparisions shortly.

maybe we should start at the very beginnings in October of 44 with 262 claims ? then to losses ? this could get quite long but what do you all think or want to do ??

Erich ~

FLYBOYJ · 05-13-2005, 10:27 AM

If we could do losses first....

Thanks!

Erich · 05-13-2005, 10:39 AM

August 28, 1944 1 jet claimed as destroyed by 78th fg pilots Major J Myers and Lt. M.D.Croy.

Ronny Lauer from I./KG 51 was actually on a landing pattern and crash landed his 262 to get away from the Allied fighters, He took off out of the jet and ran for cover as the two P-47 pilots turned his jet to junk. Ronny was able to fight on many more missions as he survived the war........

the US pilot Croy admitted to shooting at Lauer and hitting him but Lauer was uninjured.....

DAVIDICUS · 05-13-2005, 11:08 AM

I know that there is some controversy over that incident which is why I said,

"I read some where that the first Me-262 was forced down by P-47's of the 78th FG on August 28, 1944"

From what I understand, one engine had quit from lack of fuel and he was forced into a premature crash-landing as a result of the P-47's.

Erich · 05-13-2005, 11:17 AM

my 3 sources do not mention. /// Ronny Lauer was to come back on the 2nd of October and tried to bounce P-47's of 365th fg, trying to evade the Jugs after several unsuccessful attacks both turbines shut down-ran out of fuel and Ronny dropped down to within 500 ft of the ground. Captain Valmore Beaudrault jumped the 262, the 262 dropped a wing and it hit the ground, cartwheeling and then exploding, Lauer surviving the blast but with serious injuries. Beaudrault was given a credit for unconfirmed destroyed.......go figure !

plan_D · 05-13-2005, 11:22 AM

I think that should be a kill. He didn't actually shoot the aircraft but he did force it into the ground, so it's a kill in my eyes.

FLYBOYJ · 05-13-2005, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

I think that should be a kill. He didn't actually shoot the aircraft but he did force it into the ground, so it's a kill in my eyes.

And I believe that is used as crteria for a kill as well.

KraziKanuK · 05-13-2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

I think that should be a kill. He didn't actually shoot the aircraft but he did force it into the ground, so it's a kill in my eyes.

How far do you want to take that? Any a/c attacked and damaged could be called a kill if it crashed, eventually, even when trying to land back at its base.

Erich, have you seen Wendel's report? Did Lauer make a emergency landing at a French airfield and later crashed when attacked by the P-47s (sic Spitfires)?

Erich · 05-13-2005, 12:05 PM

I have seen many reprots guys and I will cover the Spitfire kill a bit later. I am trying to look at a chronological order to all of this and of course excluding the Me 262 claims for now.

I am trying hard to report what was claimed or confirmed and cross reference the operation with the two sides involved. do not want to take sides but if all of you want to debate go ahead. Lauers first impression during his first forced landing in august mentioned that he thought they were Spits and not Jugs. As there is no I./KG 51 unit history yet confirmation of the days ops is still much sketchy. The Kommandeur of the I. gruppe survived the war and was writing the history but passed away and am not sure who is going to take up this very much needed units story.........indeed later war ops in spring of 45 just mentions an area of engagement or shoot down and not even a pilots name as well as no accurate spot of the downing either by the P-51 or the 262. Generalities exist

FLYBOYJ · 05-13-2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

I think that should be a kill. He didn't actually shoot the aircraft but he did force it into the ground, so it's a kill in my eyes.

How far do you want to take that? Any a/c attacked and damaged could be called a kill if it crashed, eventually, even when trying to land back at its base.

I think if it could confirmed that they forced him down and he crashed, it should be considered a kill.

Erich · 05-13-2005, 12:19 PM

why do I feel this incredibly long thread is going to need an edit now and then....

if I may back up just a bit.

Ronny Lauers ture name was Hieronymous. On August 28 in a German report he was flying with Kommando Schenk and was reported to have been engaged near Brussels.

For 2 October Herr Lauer is in 3./KG 51 flying Me 262 coded 9K+NL, werke nummer : 170069, (shot down by US fighter near Rheine), we now know otherwise.......