PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by marlin

"The only air to air kill by a Brit. pilot in a Brit. aircraft in the Korean War" ?
That takes some believing !

Well it seems that's the truth. I don't know of any RAF exchange pilots who flew F-86s who got a Mig although there may be one...

[Seawitch]

Whatever....this was the first Jet Victim of the Royal Navy . It first came to my attention when I saw an oil painting of it in a West London gallery.

[renrich]

Referring to the "discussion" about Chuck Yeager I was wondering if any of you knew Marion Carl and would care to compare his demeanor with Yeager's. Carl's list of accomplishments compare pretty well with Yeager's.

[renrich]

Speaking of Cape Buffalo, I saw the most incredible video I have ever seen on CNN a while ago. It featured a herd of Cape Buffalo(which of course the tv guy called water buffalo) a pride of lionesses, a crocodile and the victim, a young Cape Buffalo. Has anyone else seen it?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by renrich

Referring to the "discussion" about Chuck Yeager I was wondering if any of you knew Marion Carl and would care to compare his demeanor with Yeager's. Carl's list of accomplishments compare pretty well with Yeager's.

I heard stories about Carl being a bit gruff, but I don't think anyone could compare with Yeager...

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by renrich

Speaking of Cape Buffalo, I saw the most incredible video I have ever seen on CNN a while ago. It featured a herd of Cape Buffalo(which of course the tv guy called water buffalo) a pride of lionesses, a crocodile and the victim, a young Cape Buffalo. Has anyone else seen it?

I made a thread, "Battle at Kruger" in off topic that has the video

[ccheese]

Renrich:

Yea, saw it last night on TV. Heres the scoop:

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

Charles

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by marlin

"The only air to air kill by a Brit. pilot in a Brit. aircraft in the Korean War" ?
That takes some believing !

It's true and shouldn't be suprising because the only British fighter units in the Korean War were piston carrier sdns and they seldom encountered enemy a/c, just a few occasions right around the time of that victory, July and August 1952, a Sea Fury and 2 Fireflies were lost in other of those encounters. The opponents appear to have been Chinese, who lost a couple of MiG's in that general period hunting UN fighter bombers along the west coast of NK, but I know of no specific account by them of that combat.

This site lists British pilots credited with victories in Korea, all others on exchange with F-86 snds as already mentioned (generally reliable site, but official victory tallies often vary by source):
Jan J. Safarik: Air Aces Home Page

As long as others opened piston engine jet victories up to Korea , the North Koreans scored one: July 19, 1950 F-80C's engaged NK Yak-9P's near Taejon claiming 3, but one F-80 was damaged and crashed killing the pilot before he could make an emergency landing, the first US jet lost in air combat.
KORWALD Loss Incident Summary
A captured document shows that two Yak's were actually downed, naming the pilots. A defector account corroborates that saying the same pilots (who obviously survived) claimed 3 F-80's, each.

Joe

[fer-de-lance]

Hey JoeB, good to see you here. ChiCom sources say that on July 27, 1952 the 3rd Air Division claimed 4 Mk-5 (Firefly FR-Mk5?) south of Pyongyang and the 51st Regiment of the 18th Air Division claimed one kill.

That was the day when 825 SQ from HMS Ocean was attacked by MiG's and had one Firefly damaged badly enough that it had to force-land (wheels up) on Paeyang-do. Another 825SQ Firefly from the same flight (D) ditched that day but claimed to have been damaged by ground fire. Are these the two Firefly losses you were referring to?

The 18th Air Division's other regiment, the 52nd, was the unit involved in the action on August 9th, 1952. They claimed one "F-Mk8" but mentioned no losses. However, the pilots of the Sea Furies in Carmichael's flight clearly saw a plane crash into a hillside. At first they thought it was one of theirs but a radio check found everyone accounted for. So, it was assumed that it was a MiG that crashed.

Two other 802SQ Sea Furies from HMS Ocean were damaged during the fight with the MiG's, one force landed at Cho-do and another managed to get back to the carrier.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by fer-de-lance

1. Hey JoeB, good to see you here

2. That was the day when 825 SQ from HMS Ocean was attacked by MiG's and had one Firefly damaged badly enough that it had to force-land (wheels up) on Paeyang-do. Another 825SQ Firefly from the same flight (D) ditched that day but claimed to have been damaged by ground fire. Are these the two Firefly losses you were referring to?

3. The 18th Air Division's other regiment, the 52nd, was the unit involved in the action on August 9th, 1952.

1. Thanks; maybe I know you too under another name somewhere else?

2. Yes, but I'm not questioning the recorded cause of one of those losses. Looking back at Landsdown "With the Carriers in Korea" pg. 269, excerpt of 825 sdn diary, I just read over it too fast: they did give the cause as flak, causing coolant leak leading to ditching, for one and MiG (causing belly landing) for the other. The bellied plane's final fate isn't clear either, although I'd count forcing a belly landing on a beach as 'victory' for the opposing plane. In the picture on p.271 of the book its nose is being lifted off the beach (at Paengyong-do) by a crane, and its serial appears to be WB415 (or 416); neither was officially written off in 1952, so perhaps it was repaired.

3. Could you give a specific source, please, for this and the other Chinese unit ID's? Thanks.

Joe

[fer-de-lance]

Joe, we've swapped emails a while back on nightfighting in Korea, particularly the circumstances surrounding the loss of a Skyknight.

Source of the Chinese Unit ID:
Wang, Yu-zhong
YIDAI TIANJIAO: XIN ZHONGGUO KONGJUN SHIZHAN LU
publ. 1992 ZHONGGONG ZHONGYANG DANGXIAO CHU BAN SHE, Beijing
(Chinese Communist Party School Publishing)
ISBN：75035051** / E297.5

A search of the web found discussion board postings which appears to be copied straight from Chinese PLAAF publications. One revealed that the Aug. 9th, 1952 action involved 8 MiG's. One flight of 4 from the 18th Air Division (AD)/52nd Air Regiment (AR) led by the deputy regimental commander Zhang, Chuan-zhi claimed one kill against "F-Mk8" while covered by another 4 led by the deputy commander of the 3rd AD/7th AR Sun, Jing-Hua.

That particular summary of the 18th AD noted that this was the first victory for the 18th AD. It did not mention losses specific to that date or any other date but gave the following summary:

between May 22 and Dec 5 1952

engaged in 7 air combats;
claimed 6 kills;
suffered 3 shot down, 3 damaged and one pilot killed.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by fer-de-lance

A search of the web found discussion board postings which appears to be copied straight from Chinese PLAAF publications. One revealed that the Aug. 9th, 1952 action involved 8 MiG's. One flight of 4 from the 18th Air Division (AD)/52nd Air Regiment (AR) led by the deputy regimental commander Zhang, Chuan-zhi claimed one kill against "F-Mk8" while covered by another 4 led by the deputy commander of the 3rd AD/7th AR Sun, Jing-Hua.

Thanks,
This?:
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It's also on the official 50th anniversary KW Chinese chronology I copied from the web a long time ago but never noticed (perhaps because my Chinese reading stinks though a little less now than it did at the time). It seems to say 8 and 8 a/c of 18/52 and 3/7 for 2 victories over 'FMK-8's'
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(only the google-cache version seems to ever come up now)

To compare this back to the 802 sdn diary excerpted in Landsdowne p 273-4:
0630 15 mi N of Chinnampo (Nampo) Carmichael's flight of 4 Sea Furies sighted 8 MiG's. 4-5 minute dogfight, where all four FAA pilots fired and at least 3 reported registering hits in 'a dozen of so firing passes', mainly head on; though one pulled in front of SubLt BE Ellis on an overshoot, and was reported by him to disengage 'at reduced speed' with two other MiG's covering it after being hit in the wings. No specific MiG seemed to be followed from hit to crash, but rather as the MiG's departed an aircraft was seen to crash, feared to be a Sea Fury but when all 4 pilots reported in OK assumed to be a MiG. Claim 1 dest/0 prob/2 dam. 'from a confused situation Carmichael as flight leader got the credit for its destruction'. Although, a quote from Carmichael on p 275 somewhat contradicts the sdn diary by saying he was sure he got the MiG and followed it from hit to crash.

0800 'a report came through' that Lt RJ Clark's Sea Fury, of another flight, was hit in the right wing and caught fire. He put the fire out by sideslipping and returned safely. Lt HM McEnery of the same flight claimed a MiG damaged.

"by the time Clark returned" Lt. RH Hallam's flight was attacked. "Hallam was leading a weaving procession of 1 Sea Fury, 2 MiG's and 1 Fury down the Taedong Gang (river)...Hallam was obliged to make a wheels up landing on Chodo...large hole just behind the cockpit where a 37mm had found its mark".

So, there were three separate actions with at least the first two possibly too far apart in time to be the same MiG's. In any case since Sea Furies were hit in the second two encounters, odds are those are the ones which make up the 2 'FMK-8' claims. It seems possible the first could have been a different unit or different a/c of the same unit but in any case I agree with your implication that the lack of mention of losses in the brief official account doesn't mean much. Pretty heavy overall PLAAF MiG losses in Korea are acknowledged in total, but specific accounts seem to emphasize covering the claims.

One more source to throw out in Zhang in "Red Wings Over the Yalu" p 190 gives the claim for PLAAF fighter bomber hunting south of Pyongyang in July-Oct 1952 as 30 UN a/c (jet and naval prop) for 2 MiG's destroyed. His footnote is partly to I believe the same book you mentioned, though he transliterates the spelling differently.

Anyway now I've learned some more about this incident, and I hope at some point we get still more details from the MiG side.

Joe

[fer-de-lance]

Yes, right you are. The CJDBY post said Zhang, Chuan-zhi led 8 MiG's and was covered by the 3AD ... The other 50th Anniversay site clearly said it was 8 and 8 ... 好眼力！

Off topic but notice 超级大本营 thread post #707 - next to the last sentence(!) 6号机赵志财被美机击伤，跳伞时因高度过低而牺牲。

Lt Col. William Bertram's claim is confirmed - it belonged to the Chinese 4AD 10AR! Looks like the ACIG article at :

Honchos

needs updating

[Erich]

Attention gents

Joe needs to take the last page and 1/2 a restart a new thread on jets vs jets. you guys are all OT here, and flubbing up my thread ........... props vs jets

[FLYBOYJ]

Perhaps we could break this in two - WW2 and post WW2??