 | PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS| Aviation Discuss PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS in the World War II - Aviation forums; " One a pilot from the 56th fg and the other from the 354th fg"
You're referring to ... |
|
03-15-2008, 06:10 PM
|
#466 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 5
Country:  | "One a pilot from the 56th fg and the other from the 354th fg"
You're referring to Wally Groce of the 63rd FS 56th FG and Kelly Gross of the 355th FS 354th FG. Both about 40 miles north of me. | 
|  | |
04-09-2008, 06:08 AM
|
#467 | | Member
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lethbridge, AB Canada
Posts: 38
Country:  | None...No 262 where shot down on the western front, unless an engine flamed out, or where picked off on landing by P-51's. Allied pilots may claim as so...but German records indicate no pilots bailing out or shot down prior to an engine flame-out and speed reduced to around 300 mph | |
| | |
04-09-2008, 06:29 AM
|
#468 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,117
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by bf109 Emil  None...No 262 where shot down on the western front, unless an engine flamed out, or where picked off on landing by P-51's. Allied pilots may claim as so...but German records indicate no pilots bailing out or shot down prior to an engine flame-out and speed reduced to around 300 mph | German records? Can you quote them?
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"  | 
| | |
04-09-2008, 09:04 AM
|
#469 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,552
Country: | sorry 109E you are so wrong, I have seen the P-51 gun films showing 262 pilots bailing out, JG 7 's book which I quote as a source is full of documentation of pilots being shot down NO after flame outs..................how silly
__________________
shhhh ........ es ist ein Geheimnis | |
| | |
04-09-2008, 11:29 AM
|
#470 | | Member
Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Tularosa, NM, USA
Posts: 79
Country: | Erich, History is written by the victors... maybe the truth lies partially in the different systems of countingkillsby those keeping the records on the different sides. - Karl | |
| | |
04-09-2008, 11:38 AM
|
#471 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: oregon
Posts: 1,590
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Sitts Erich, History is written by the victors... maybe the truth lies partially in the different systems of countingkillsby those keeping the records on the different sides. - Karl | Karl - there are many documented Encounter reports with witnesses on bail outs or complete destruction - usually from high deflection shots or lucky chasing shots in which an engine was damaged - but high speed nevertheless.
Why is it important to you one way or another?
BTW, one of the holy grails ARE records from the Luftwaffe for the latter months of the war - so what is your source of facts to dispute the witnessed encounter reports and gun camera film? | |
| | |
04-09-2008, 11:44 AM
|
#472 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: oregon
Posts: 1,590
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by bf109 Emil None...No 262 where shot down on the western front, unless an engine flamed out, or where picked off on landing by P-51's. Allied pilots may claim as so...but German records indicate no pilots bailing out or shot down prior to an engine flame-out and speed reduced to around 300 mph | You realize if you take a hit in the engine and it flames out, or is otherwise debilitated, how would the pilot 'know' what the cause was? And so, damaged, would it make sense to get out or let the chasing fighter blow the Me 262 up? If a.) the jet is chased, and b.) the jet is abandoned, it is c.) destroyed and d.) the chasing pilot gets an air to air award.
If a 109 or Mustang takes a hit in the coolant and the pilot has to bail out - is he 'downed' or should you claim he 'only got out because his engine failed'??
And, like Joe - what records are you quoting? | |
| | |
04-09-2008, 12:40 PM
|
#473 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,117
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Sitts Erich, History is written by the victors... maybe the truth lies partially in the different systems of countingkillsby those keeping the records on the different sides. - Karl | Ahhhh, I don't think so.
When you have combat reports from BOTH SIDES confirming what happened during a specific event and if its back up with gun camera footage, I think this goes beyond your comment....
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT" | |
| | |
04-09-2008, 01:25 PM
|
#474 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,552
Country: | Karl what utter nonsense, sorry but after seeking records on the my relatives that served in the Luftwaffe and having access to both sides records I will say NOT. ! the gun cams prove too much plus first hand accts from the US pilots and the German crews flying the jets
I really wish those that are most interested in the 262 combats would quit believing the myths surrounding just how fast and uncatchable the jet was, guess I've just been researching this jet vs the prop jobs since the 1960's seeing all types of so called factual proofs for too many years.
I go back to JG 7 author M. Boehme who mentions time and again
__________________
shhhh ........ es ist ein Geheimnis | |
| | |
04-10-2008, 12:38 PM
|
#475 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: oregon
Posts: 1,590
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Sitts Erich, History is written by the victors... maybe the truth lies partially in the different systems of countingkillsby those keeping the records on the different sides. - Karl | try these records - the 262's in the gun camera film are dead, one is low altitude on final approach with gear down (unsporting?) the rest are ones caught at high altitude.
I think this is the right link - the 262 stuff in middle and end of sequences YouTube - Gun Camera | |
| | |
04-11-2008, 11:01 AM
|
#476 | | Member
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lethbridge, AB Canada
Posts: 38
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ German records? Can you quote them? | I will have to have someone translate Gallands German Biography again, but will pass on...
a video of 262 that has a surprise to B17 crew...nice if never viewed before YouTube - Messerschmitt Me-262 Schwalbe/Sturmvogel
or if on youtube try this header...Messerschmitt Me-262 Schwalbe/Sturmvogel
bf109 Emil | |
| | |
04-11-2008, 11:09 AM
|
#477 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,117
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by bf109 Emil I will have to have someone translate Gallands German Biography again, but will pass on...
a video of 262 that has a surprise to B17 crew...nice if never viewed before YouTube - Messerschmitt Me-262 Schwalbe/Sturmvogel
or if on youtube try this header...Messerschmitt Me-262 Schwalbe/Sturmvogel
bf109 Emil | Galland may of had his opinions, the fact remains there is compelling evidence to show that Me 262s were indeed shot down at high altitudes with speeds over 300 mph and with both engines burning.
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT" | |
| | |
04-11-2008, 11:21 AM
|
#478 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,552
Country: | sorry emil but that you tube vid was crock pieced together from different ww2 vids and German propaganda film of the jet over a German airfield, that just isn't going to back up your claim(s) at all man.
Gallands only first hand experience was in JV 44 and he did not have a real feel of fighting against US fighters nor the US Heavies of the 8th AF as his unit took on the 9th...........
__________________
shhhh ........ es ist ein Geheimnis | |
| | |
04-11-2008, 12:03 PM
|
#479 | | Member
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lethbridge, AB Canada
Posts: 38
Country: | yes in the seat of a fighter...as jv 44 was an elite group he formed of top german aces flying jets armed with rockets and was created in march of '45...prior, he directed or controled luftwaffe fighter while in either a 110 or 210 later from a safe distance, targeting broken boxes, or one most vulnerable, while head of general de lagerfleiger...as for video being a crock, ok, i am not a production or film producer expert, nor knowledge able in that field...much the same as Spielberg bogus clip of Marshall"s speech (Saving Private Ryan) movie about Mrs. Bixby...as his researching should have known she had only 2 kids, one in the north, and one in the south...and...upon receiving Lincolns letter, she tore it up because she dispised him...as falsified extra sons to gather insurance benefits from army death payment to wifes or mothers... | |
| | |
04-11-2008, 12:27 PM
|
#480 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 1,464
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by bf109 Emil much the same as Spielberg bogus clip of Marshall"s speech (Saving Private Ryan) movie about Mrs. Bixby...as his researching should have known she had only 2 kids, one in the north, and one in the south...and...upon receiving Lincolns letter, she tore it up because she dispised him...as falsified extra sons to gather insurance benefits from army death payment to wifes or mothers... | SPR was a movie/fiction. What does that have to do with this thread  
TO
__________________  “Let's get Enterprise and Hornet turned into the wind." | |
| | | Thread Tools | Search this Thread | | | | | Display Modes |  Linear Mode | 
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:32 AM. | | |
