PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS

[Erich]

dang that steak sounds great Bill...it will be in August and I will contact you, am going overseas next week through first part of August. moving slow and it is taking it's time for healing up.........really nuts. cannot sit long enough behind the PC to type as I get stiff real fast, and as to those Wolfs of yours put them out on the patio while we eat

E ~ and the only thing going for a 262 over the Stang is it's flat out speed

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

dang that steak sounds great Bill...it will be in August and I will contact you, am going overseas next week through first part of August. moving slow and it is taking it's time for healing up.........really nuts. cannot sit long enough behind the PC to type as I get stiff real fast, and as to those Wolfs of yours put them out on the patio while we eat

E ~ and the only thing going for a 262 over the Stang is it's flat out speed

Lol - I eat at Their will - but I'll work on a deal.

[lesofprimus]

U guys crack me up.... Glad to see ur offering ALL of our members here the best Texas Steak in Oregon Bill...

Very nice and polite of u...

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

U guys crack me up.... Glad to see ur offering ALL of our members here the best Texas Steak in Oregon Bill...

Very nice and polite of u...

Normally Squids need not apply - but All of you are welcome.

However if you show up at the same time I'll have to switch to smoked ribs and Brisket (Actually I could smoke a rolled Raost).

As it stands E will have to putter about 36 miles to the ranch, how about the rest of you knuckleheads?

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Erich

E ~ and the only thing going for a 262 over the Stang is it's flat out speed

No it climbed faster and retained speed in tight turns much better, something which is made quite clear by both Allied & German pilots who flew it.

From Me-262 A-1 Pilot's Handbook, put together by US & UK test pilots:
"(2) The airplane holds its speed in tight turns much longer than conventional types."

Luftwaffe test pilot, Hans fey:
"The Me-262 will turn much better at high than at low speeds, and due to its clean design, will keep its speed in tight turns much longer than the conventional type aircraft"

And according to flight tests the max climb rate at SL was 19.5 m/s (3,838 ft/min) at ~7,000 kg, the normal take off weight was 6,400 kg and empty weight was 3,900 kg;
Me-262 A-1a Lesitung charts:

Soren - I am now through the histories of the 352, 357 and 355FG awards on 262's. I am sorry but two things happened when a 262 started the turn 100mph faster and turned in the horizontal with a Mustang. a.) it lost a lost of energy, and b.) the Mustang could cut the circle and get a nice deflection 'head shot'.

Bill as you have just demonstrated it depends entirely on the situation, and you don't know the story of the Allied fighter pilots shot down by the Me-262.

It is highly likely a P-51 seeing a Me-262 in his tail took the fight to the horizontal as-well only to be cut off in the turn and recieve a stream of 30mm HE projectile to his cockpit. Its not hard to cut off a turn and get a deflection shot, even against a better turning a/c, and esp. not if you have fast and flat firing guns.

In short it was by no means a mistake for a Me-262 pilot to engage in the horizontal with a Mustang as long as he knew what he was doing and didn't let speed drop too low. He had to keep the speed up, which he could do by dropping his nose down.

We know that the Me-262 was considerably faster, climbed faster and maintains speed in tight turns considerably better than any piston engined fighter. And we know the approx. Clmax of the wing as-well, so we know that above 450 km/h a Me-262 will black out the average pilot in its tighest turn. Now on top of this we know the Me-262 mostly flew at speeds higher than 600 km/h, at which speed a whole lot of G's could be pulled.

The absolute no no in any of the early jets was however getting into a low speed turning fight as acceleration was very sluggish at slow speeds.

I'm sure you both agree.

[Erich]

Soren thank you for the critique and graph but the vets that I have interviewed in several different ways that encountered and watched their buddies bounce 262's the climb did nothing and the fast turns as you say (yes the jets were faster than the Stang) did not alleviate the problem because of speed that the Mustang pilots could turn inside of it and rake the fuselage of the jet and this happened many times, if not the destruction of the LW craft at least damaged it severely enough. obviously and this was case enough times if the jet pilot could get a forward motion observe the pursuing Mustangs then he could open it up and the jet would be gone, have the Mustang interviews to prove that as well, even the Ar 234 did this.

Bill tell the Wolves to sit in the basement locked up while we eat upstairs and get out of the 100F plus heat

[Soren]

Erich I really don't think we disagree here, any of us, we're just expressing ourselves differently and misunderstand each other, cause again it all depends on the situation, such as:
a) Which a/c is the pursuer ?
b) Is the prey aware that is being pursued ?
c) How well trained was the pilots of either a/c ?

It all adds up to how it happened.

The point is that if a Me-262 came up behind a P-51 and the P-51 pilot saw it and started to turn he would, just like a Me-262 pilot doing the same, expose his entire a/c to a nice deflection shot. And just like You & Bill have mentioned, that is how the Me-262's in turn fights were shot down, in their initial turn which was cut short by a deflection shot. I'm quite sure a lot of the P-51's shot down by the Me-262 it was the same deal, they saw it, tried to evade by turning but cut off and blasted out of the sky.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

No it climbed faster and retained speed in tight turns much better, something which is made quite clear by both Allied & German pilots who flew it.

From Me-262 A-1 Pilot's Handbook, put together by US & UK test pilots:
"(2) The airplane holds its speed in tight turns much longer than conventional types."

And you have a comparison which states the radius of the turn in a High spped turn of the Me 262 is equal or less than say a Spit or 51 - at any altitude?

Luftwaffe test pilot, Hans fey:
"The Me-262 will turn much better at high than at low speeds, and due to its clean design, will keep its speed in tight turns much longer than the conventional type aircraft"

Hans stated it will turn better than "what" at low speeds? and what is a High, medium and Low speed in these anecdotal conversations?


Bill as you have just demonstrated it depends entirely on the situation, and you don't know the story of the Allied fighter pilots shot down by the Me-262.

The only ones I have read basically have the same story - approach at high speed from behind, shallow dive to remain unseen, accelerate through the 6 o'clock shot and continue past at high speed. What do you have to offer for different scenarios? Not that I would dispute it but would like to see a couple of claims made by 262 pilots in which they engaged and stayed in the horizontal.

It is highly likely a P-51 seeing a Me-262 in his tail took the fight to the horizontal as-well only to be cut off in the turn and recieve a stream of 30mm HE projectile to his cockpit. Its not hard to cut off a turn and get a deflection shot, even against a better turning a/c, and esp. not if you have fast and flat firing guns.

Totally agree.

In short it was by no means a mistake for a Me-262 pilot to engage in the horizontal with a Mustang as long as he knew what he was doing and didn't let speed drop too low. He had to keep the speed up, which he could do by dropping his nose down.

We know that the Me-262 was considerably faster, climbed faster and maintains speed in tight turns considerably better than any piston engined fighter.

Soren - I am ok with everything you say, including better energy retention in a high speed turn as it's drag was lower to considerably lower than the Allied fighters. The 51 was close as far a total wetted drag, however.

As Erich noted, fooling around in the horizontal attracted a crowd in most cases, and while the 262 may be losing energy slower than his horizontal opponent, there was a high probability that a wingman or another flight was not laboring under that challenge.

Soren - it is a fact that pilots that spotted Me 262s on their tail nearly always pulled into a high G turn and shallow dive or steep climb to evade - of course we only read about the successes. The MACRs I have read regarding eyewitness accounts of a Mustang loss all have the 262 scoring from 5-7 o'clock and continuing on with no return.


And we know the approx. Clmax of the wing as-well, so we know that above 450 km/h a Me-262 will black out the average pilot in its tighest turn. Not on top of this we know the Me-262 mostly flew at speeds higher than 600 km/h, at which speed a whole lot of G's could be pulled.

The only difference in this discussion between say a Spit XIV or a P-51B and a Me 262, for both of those scenarios ,is that the 262 fully spooled up has more thrust available over the thrust required for the maneuver at those two speeds for the same turn and velocity, and as you note the 262 is cleaner so it will lose energy (velocity) slower - but the Spit and 51 will be able to turn with a tighter radius depending on the pilot's ability (both) to sustain the G's. Back to the G suit discussion and the fact that all US pilots wore them after October 1944.


The absolute no no in any of the early jets was however getting into a low speed turning fight as acceleration was very sluggish at slow speeds.

I agree, and until afterburners were developed that principle applied throughout

I'm sure you both agree.

Soren - I am still not clear on your thesis? Are you saying that an Me 262, because of it's Thrust Available over Thrust Required and it's aerodynamic qualities will be able to turn with a tighter radius than either the 51 or the Spit?

I know you said that a 262 pilot can fight in the horizontal with those two 'if the pilot knows what he is doing' but there is a difference between a sharp bank at high speed to get deflection on a slower ship turning much tighter, and missing that shot and entering into a chase in the horizontal. A lot of Zero's scored against USN and USAAF ships that were a lot faster than the zero and attempted the same manuever...ditto a Brewster Buffalo against a 109.

Erich - no basement but we have fenced off front yard, courtyard, and side pasture as designated 'no drool' zones. We could also designate them as "Squid AOO's" and feed all of them over the fences.

Erich and I are in complete agreement that the latter move would not be a clever move on the part of the pursuing Me 262.

[Soren]

What I'm saying Bill is not that the Me-262 turns a tighter radius than the Mustang, cause it doesn't, only that at and above 450 km/h the Me-262 can maintain a higher turn rate. And at 450 km/h and above both a/c can black out the pilot in a max performance turn. Below 450 km/h the Mustang can maintain a higher turn rate than the Me-262.

So what I'm saying is taking the fight to the horizontal against a P-51 wouldn't be a mistake by the Me-262 pilot, as long as he didn't stay there amd get into a prolonged turn fight where speed would drop below 450 km/h rather quickly. A Me-262 with a P-51 on its tail closing fast would be best off making a high G turn, straighten up and dive away, gain speed and distance, climb and reverse on the Mustang. I never meant that it should stay and fight purely in the horizontal, against a prop fighter that's a death sentence for any of the early jets.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Erich I really don't think we disagree here, any of us, we're just expressing ourselves differently and misunderstand each other, cause again it all depends on the situation, such as:
a) Which a/c is the pursuer ?
b) Is the prey aware that is being pursued ?
c) How well trained was the pilots of either a/c ?

It all adds up to how it happened.

The point is that if a Me-262 came up behind a P-51 and the P-51 pilot saw it and started to turn he would, just like a Me-262 pilot doing the same, expose his entire a/c to a nice deflection shot. And just like You & Bill have mentioned, that is how the Me-262's in turn fights were shot down, in their initial turn which was cut short by a deflection shot. I'm quite sure a lot of the P-51's shot down by the Me-262 it was the same deal, they saw it, tried to evade by turning but cut off and blasted out of the sky.

I agree..

on another note I have not seen evidence of a 'lot of P-51s shot down' by Me 262s. I wonder where we need to look to get some documentation of even claims?

I know the 357FG lost one per a MACR, the 355th did not lose any, I'm still researching the 78th and 339th, and have a long way to go to understand the actual described combat with the 262s. So far ~ 75 % engaged at high altitude to medium altitude, and ~ 25% while attempting to land or just after takeoff at low altitude.

Food for thought; 390 8th AF FC fighters were lost to all causes (air, flak, Ops, accident, unknown) from Jan1 1945 through the end of the war. more than 240 were lost to flak.

I'm still cross checking but it seems that of the 390 lost in the last 4 months, 36 were air to air and 6 more 'Unknown - last seen..". Of the 36 "known air", 5 were Me 262s, 16 were Me 109s and 15 were Fw 190s.

If you speculate that all six of the Unknown were a.) all air to air and b.) and all by Me 262s that leaves 11 Mustangs shot down by an Me 262.

That of course does not account for RAF Mustangs, nor MTO fighters in the Southern Germany/Austria areas.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

What I'm saying Bill is not that the Me-262 turns a tighter radius than the Mustang, cause it doesn't, only that at and above 450 km/h the Me-262 can maintain a higher turn rate. And at 450 km/h and above both a/c can black out the pilot in a max performance turn. Below 450 km/h the Mustang can maintain a higher turn rate than the Me-262.

So what I'm saying is taking the fight to the horizontal against a P-51 wouldn't be a mistake by the Me-262 pilot, as long as he didn't stay there amd get into a prolonged turn fight where speed would drop below 450 km/h rather quickly. A Me-262 with a P-51 on its tail closing fast would be best off making a high G turn, straighten up and dive away, gain speed and distance, climb and reverse on the Mustang. I never meant that it should stay and fight purely in the horizontal, against a prop fighter that's a death sentence for any of the early jets.

I would say we are all in complete agreement

[Les'Bride]

I'm here for the brisket and the Wolfies.

[lesofprimus]

Bill, if u aint cooking up steaks, I aint comin.... I'd probably have a better time with the Wolfies than u 2 old men anyways....

Less slobber from the dogs....

[Erich]

nah I'll let Bill put the nbon-Oregonians out in the trees with the Poison Oak begging to be let free, the wolfs can take care of themselves.

ya know if someone would get the bright idea and put a you tube vid together covering the tactics of the STang/Me 262, turns, dives, banks, deception, zoom and climb or fall off that would be quite enlightening and think all would generally learn from this...........

another point I had been thinking about when this thread was started was just as Bill mentions: listing the claims of P-51's by the Nowotny band, JG 7 and the KG's acting like under-trained fighter units/ Bill is correct though not very many that is fact, the jets did come in from a height advnatage and it was literally attack with a sharp suddeness and zoom away as fast as they could travel.

I'll start digging but want to post a couple of pics of a Me 163 killer pretty soon.

E ~

[Erich]

this little section will be in 2-3 parts. been in contact with the daughter of W.E. formerly of the 364th fg, whom with another pilot shot down the only Me 163 in the fighter group on October 7, 1944. At 12.30 hrs, Flight leader Taylor dove from a couple thousand feet on an Me 163 that had just gone through a box of B-17's. Taylor pursued in his dive too fast and overshot the rocket fighter and ordered W.E. to pursue, which he did. He closed the gap and peppered the tiny fighter till it nosed over and flew down damaged and crash-landed on a grass field. W.E. and another 364th fg pilot winged-over and came in behind the rocket/fighter as the pilot bailed out and ran for cover, strafing the LW craft till it was destroyed.

W.E.'s daughter has her fathers gun cam film. Here is a shot (in behind) the 163 of JG 400 which were quite active on the October 44 date against B-17's.