 | PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS| Aviation Discuss PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS in the World War II - Aviation forums; Yes, if they confirmed that the plane that crashed on landing was due to damage caused by a certain pilot ... |
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05-13-2005, 12:56 PM
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#46 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,051
Country:  | Yes, if they confirmed that the plane that crashed on landing was due to damage caused by a certain pilot in an earlier conflict, it's a kill for that pilot. Why not?
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05-13-2005, 01:02 PM
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#47 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
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Country:  | Years later, but same case:
"One kill was credited to a F-15C pilot who maneuvered his MiG-29 opponent into flying his aircraft into the ground. The F-15C's 20-mm cannon was never fired in anger."
From Desert Storm Chronicles
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05-13-2005, 01:06 PM
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#48 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 714
| "How far do you want to take that? Any a/c attacked and damaged could be called a kill if it crashed, eventually, even when trying to land back at its base."
Well, if you are forced down into a crash in the midst of being engaged by enemy fighters, that constitutes a pretty clear and reasonable bright line for determining a kill don't you think?
Your example, as stated above, involves an "eventual" crash after hostile engagement has ceased.
Forcing a pilot, in the heat of combat, to crash-land or otherwise set down on your terms, as opposed to his, in a fashion that destroys his plane would clearly constitute a kill.
How about a situation where a plane is engaged by the enemy, shot to hell, goes into an out of control dive, and the pilot at the last moment regains enough control of the aircraft to crash land and destroys the aircraft in the process? No kill?
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05-13-2005, 01:17 PM
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#49 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
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Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS "[i]How about a situation where a plane is engaged by the enemy, shot to hell, goes into an out of control dive, and the pilot at the last moment regains enough control of the aircraft to crash land and destroys the aircraft in the process? No kill? | I think if you could confirm this, its a kill.
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05-13-2005, 01:46 PM
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#50 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,677
Country: | ok enough..........
3rd/4th Me 262 losses was on 5 October 1944.
the first was Hauptmann Hans-Christoph Buttmann of 3./KG 51 shot down by the RCAF fighters near Nijmegen in 9K+BL and the second this date was also from 3./KG 51, Unteroffizier Gerhard Franke flying 9K+PL shot down at Engden/Nordhorn although this maybe due to Flak ?
KK do you have information you want to share on these ? I can fill in a bit if not....
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05-13-2005, 06:39 PM
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#51 | | Banned
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| Unteroffizier Gerhard Franke was flying WNr 170082.
Info comes from the Classic 262 series.
It seems Lauer like to run his 262 (this time WNr 170069) out of fuel, for on the Oct 2 he again did so and crashed. The a/c that he attacked were from the 365thFG. They chased after him and claimed him as a kill. | |
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05-13-2005, 08:10 PM
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#52 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,209
Country: | Erich:
The list showing "jet kills" per Figher Group you posted deserves a cut down of at least half the total number.
It is quite a comfortable thing for the USAAF to know the accurate records of Kommando Nowotny and JG 7 are not available.
Here the victor´s syndrome emerges: my claims are true but those of the "unreliable" nazi jet are of course over inflated.
Very comfortable: I publish my list of alleged shot down jets as evidence and proceed to put the victories of the jets under close scrutiny and doubt, for after all the logs of jet units can not be found completely.
It is a very funny show you guys are running here.
Delcyros: so you are convinced the number of kills gained by the jet were extremely low because it was not a fighter? BAH!!
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05-13-2005, 08:17 PM
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#53 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,677
Country: | 1/2 ? maybe, maybe not. In case we have just proven of at least what 3 jets downed by fighters.
My whole purpose Udet with your help and others is try and get the record cleaned up. there are several overall histories that need to be checked as well as the fg histories to cross reference. I think we can all add two cents and make a fairly good listing. If anything to honour vets from both sides living and the fallen.
I've heard both sides of the story by the P-51 pilots and the jet pilots themselves. Let's work together on this ok ? negativity really turns my stomach...............besides it really doesn't pump me up to even do any research as it is time wasted...........
verstehen ? 
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05-13-2005, 08:24 PM
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#54 | | Banned
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05-13-2005, 08:24 PM
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#55 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
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Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Udet Erich:
The list showing "jet kills" per Figher Group you posted deserves a cut down of at least half the total number.
It is quite a comfortable thing for the USAAF to know the accurate records of Kommando Nowotny and JG 7 are not available.
Here the victor´s syndrome emerges: my claims are true but those of the "unreliable" nazi jet are of course over inflated.
Very comfortable: I publish my list of alleged shot down jets as evidence and proceed to put the victories of the jets under close scrutiny and doubt, for after all the logs of jet units can not be found completely.
It is a very funny show you guys are running here.
Delcyros: so you are convinced the number of kills gained by the jet were extremely low because it was not a fighter? BAH!! | Eirch published earlier:
there were 118 1/2 Me 262's shot down, 12 Ar 234's and 5 Me 163 Komets.
I think that's a good basis to substantiate over-claims.
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05-13-2005, 08:38 PM
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#56 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,542
Country: | Whose records are those listed from FBJ??? German or Allied sources???
How much of a disparity is there between the 2 recorded kill listings???
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05-13-2005, 08:43 PM
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#57 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
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Originally Posted by Erich Let's work together on this ok ? negativity really turns my stomach...............besides it really doesn't pump me up to even do any research as it is time wasted.... | Erich, hang in there, this project got my attention and I appreciate your (and others) efforts in this research! 
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05-13-2005, 08:44 PM
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#58 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,677
Country: | as I said I am going to try and remain neutral. Lets list in order the kills-claims or whatever we want to call it from the "sources" and try and reference Allied to true Me 262 losses if possible and then of course the turn around once this is all done of Me 262 claims-kills to true Allied losses; my thoughts can it be done .... ?
lets see where were we...ah back in October 44 yes
E
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05-13-2005, 09:06 PM
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#59 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,677
Country: | 7 Ocotber, Kommando Nowotny intercepted B-24's and covering P-47's flown by Hub Zemke and Lt N. Benoit shot down Heinz Russel's Me 262 with Heinz bailing out successfully.
Everyone probably knows about this 361st pilot Urban Drew who shot down 2 Me 262's of Kommando Nowotny. Drew waited until 2 jets took off got in behind and shot down Lt. Gerhard Korbert who was killed in his crash-blew up and Hauptmann Arnold who was able to pop the canopy and bail out injured.
A I./KG 51 pilot bailed out unhurt under the P-47 guns of 78th fg Major R. E. Conner. the Me 262 was in the alnding approach near Osnabrück.
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05-14-2005, 12:06 AM
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#60 | | Your ad here. ;)
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Country: | Erich, you are producing some great info with a nice neutral position. That is the way that history should be presented. There are several people here who should take note, myself included.
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