Production rate versus type effectiveness

[davebender]

Fighter pilots are expensive to train. Even in WWII Russia. You cannot afford to throw their lives away as if they were conscript infantry.

[michaelmaltby]

Thanks to all who have picked up the P-39 thread. It's great to encounter people as interested (and more qualified) as I am on this subject.

I would add a few thoughts to the last few posts.

I do NOT believe the soviets pulled the Oldsmobile canon from the P-39 and replaced it with a 23mm. The British-ordered P-400 (Caribou) which the Brits declared unsuitable used a 20mm instead of the Olds 37 - and some of these P-400's went to the soviets directly from Britain. Other P-400's went to the Pacific for use by the USAAF. BUT - the Bell-delivered P-39s all used the Olds canon, along with the subsequent P-63 KIngcobra.

On the the subject of the Mig-15/17 using the 37 mm - I don't doubt that the Mig gun was far superior to the Olds. The Olds was known to jam and must have been tough to maintain - squeezed into the nose along with the 2 x 50's. The soviets - always great improvisers - designed to Mig's 37mm to be cranked down on cables, serviced, and then re-positioned.

There's much talk (not on this thread) about the poor results from mixing weapons with different muzzle velocities (37, 50's and 30's). I don't think this made much difference in the soviet application. They removed the 4 x 30's in the wings to save weight (ironic that P-39's revoved from lake bottoms often have canned [US foood aid] stuffed into the empty 30 wing cavities]. If you train/expect your pilots to close to near collision [ramming] range before opening up, the difference in spread between the 50's and the 37 become almost a mute point. At that range, even if the 37 malfunctioned, the 50's will do the job - just not as quickly perhaps.

The point about gunsights, better radios, self-sealing gas tanks all contribute to why the soviet pilots liked their "little Cobras". They also were considered very safe in wheels-up landings.

Soviet pilots came to Buffalo NY at various times dueing WW2 to consult with Bell engineers - and yes, the notorious 'fatal flat spin' was discussed. The soviets didn't consider it a show-stopper the way US and Brit pilots did. (Remember that the early years of the Martin B-26 were marred by the reputation 'Widow Maker' - altho competent demonstrated that the aircraft was controllable). After one such visit, Larry Bell is reputed to have said (see Larry Bell biography) to those close to him: "We might as well be pushing these planes into the lake for all we're learning about how the Russians are using them" (paraphrased). Bell also wanted to issue Bell zippos to the soviets (but I believe that idea was nixed).

I agree with the 1% line of reasoning expressed above. The Guards Regiments got the good stuff. As the war progressed, soviet fighters got better and better so the distinction between US and domestic production was reduced somewhat. Nonetheless - those that were issued US-built aircraft knew they were fotunate.

As to the view that pilots (even the USSR) are expensive to train. Agreed. But when collective workers got 2-3 hours training on T-34 tanks is it unsurprising that the leadership saw no disconnect in throwing waves of aircraft at the Germans - I mean - look at German Ace totals on the Eastern Front. Rudel was getting kills with Ju-87's.

Is anyone in this community familiar with an alleged 'Group 777' like the Chenault Tigers only flying P-39's? The scenario is clever - right down to Putin bringing medals to issue surviving volunteers ... but while "truthy" I think the wholw thing is a gamer's scenario. Can anyone confirm on this?

I close with this Lend Lease (USSR) web url which I refer you to. The numbers and details are fascinating:

Aircraft Deliveries

From this link you can navigate to the airtcrast pix and first-person accounts.

Chairs,

MM
Toronto

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by michaelmaltby

Thanks to all who have picked up the P-39 thread. It's great to encounter people as interested (and more qualified) as I am on this subject.

I would add a few thoughts to the last few posts.

I do NOT believe the soviets pulled the Oldsmobile canon from the P-39 and replaced it with a 23mm. The British-ordered P-400 (Caribou) which the Brits declared unsuitable used a 20mm instead of the Olds 37 - and some of these P-400's went to the soviets directly from Britain. Other P-400's went to the Pacific for use by the USAAF. BUT - the Bell-delivered P-39s all used the Olds canon, along with the subsequent P-63 KIngcobra.

I am checking other references. First the D-1 which was the Lend Lease version to both RAF and USSR replaced the 37mm M4 with the 20mm Hispano. Quite a few of these were delivered to Soviets by Bell with the Hispano.

Second the succeeding versions including the P-39N and Q as well as the P-63 were delivered with the 37mm M4.

I know I have seen references to the both the Hispano and the M4 being replaced by the 23mm because of a.) continued jamming problems, and b.) logistical availability of the 23mm. Until I find those references I stand corrected

Aircraft Deliveries

From this link you can navigate to the airtcrast pix and first-person accounts.

Chairs,

MM
Toronto

Unfortunately for USAAF, the Iron Dog was a fish out of water in the Solomons against a vastly superior Zero in manueverability. Had the engine had more power the story might have been different.

As far as ground attack it probably was superior to the P-40, but the P-40 was preferred by the Commonwealth and it apperaed to be a better choice in air combat against the 109, and that was the end of that for Western Allies.

[michaelmaltby]

All true - altho the Wildcat - as delivered to the Cactus AF - was also outclassed by the Zero - and like the P-39 - went on to modification and continued production by GM right up to the war's end.

Humor me a little here - the P-39 was called Iron Dog for a good reason. But the blame for that moniker goes to USAAF decision makers, not Larry Bell and his design team. A fully turbocharged P-39 with 20 mm canon might have done very well in the Solomons - we'll never know.

As I admitted in my first post: I'm fascinated by the "poltics" of weapon production - especially aircraft. And I love the "one man's meat is another's poison" factor. The P-39 was overshadowed by the P-38 in the minds of USAAF planners (rightly so). The P-39 was designed around the Olds canon. While not quite the case with the P-38 - it too was originally armed with the big gun.

History - especially wartime history - is full of delicious twists and ironies. I see the development and deployment of the Bell platforms as examples of those twists and turns. Did it change the course of the war - certainly not. But did it reveal the thinking of both Americans and soviets (and alter their respective views on subsequent production): most definately yes.

[I'm willing to bet that there were Soviet pilots flying Mig-15's against Sabres and B-29's in Korea, 1951 that flew P-39's and/or P-63's against the Japanese in 1945. Not unreasonable, is it? I'd love confirmation]

BTB - have you encountered this mythical 777 American volunteer group serving in Russia - that I referenced?

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by michaelmaltby

All true - altho the Wildcat - as delivered to the Cactus AF - was also outclassed by the Zero - and like the P-39 - went on to modification and continued production by GM right up to the war's end.

Very true. It served the USSR well and was replaced by better fighters more aligned with eveolving USAAF tactics after 1942. The 39 and the 400's were what we had - and that is what we fought with early along with the P-40

Humor me a little here - the P-39 was called Iron Dog for a good reason. But the blame for that moniker goes to USAAF decision makers, not Larry Bell and his design team. A fully turbocharged P-39 with 20 mm canon might have done very well in the Solomons - we'll never know.

True, and the same can be said for the P-51A/A-36. A bastard stepchild until the airwar in ETO splashed cold water on the strategic bombing doctrine that said the bombers could get through with no escort.

Here is one reference regarding replacement of the 37mm M4 and the 20mm M1 by USSR but not clear if immediate or mid operations when spare parts were scarce.

Airacobras in the Soviet Union





As I admitted in my first post: I'm fascinated by the "poltics" of weapon production - especially aircraft. And I love the "one man's meat is another's poison" factor. The P-39 was overshadowed by the P-38 in the minds of USAAF planners (rightly so). The P-39 was designed around the Olds canon. While not quite the case with the P-38 - it too was originally armed with the big gun.

The P-38, like the P-47 was designed as high altitude interceptor - hence the focus on high altitude performance and firepower

History - especially wartime history - is full of delicious twists and ironies. I see the development and deployment of the Bell platforms as examples of those twists and turns. Did it change the course of the war - certainly not. But did it reveal the thinking of both Americans and soviets (and alter their respective views on subsequent production): most definately yes.

[I'm willing to bet that there were Soviet pilots flying Mig-15's against Sabres and B-29's in Korea, 1951 that flew P-39's and/or P-63's against the Japanese in 1945. Not unreasonable, is it? I'd love confirmation]

There was a high percentage of MiG 15 aces that were Guards pilots in WWII - have no idea whether theu flew against Japanese - but certainly against the Germans in P-39s

BTB - have you encountered this mythical 777 American volunteer group serving in Russia - that I referenced?

I have heard of it through the usual internet references - as one squadron deployed in 1942 and returned in 1944 but can fine no official reference at AFHRC

[michaelmaltby]

Thanks for the clarifications. Your reference to the P-51A/A-36 system is another "ironic" twist. The specs were from the RAF and were essentially intended for Curtis - as I understand it - but N. American said - "why not design a new platform" - and not just refine the P-40. And the N.American team came up with the Allison-powered P-51 [roughly the same price as as a Curtis P-40].

As the A-36 dive bomber in Italy and the Med, it reportedly acquitted itself very well ... BUT ... it was the marriage of the airframe and laminar-flow wings to the RR Merlin ... that created the dream machine.

I've always been a fan of the razorback Mustangs and Thunderbots - especially in camo.

Back to Russian P-39's for just a sec. Quoting from memory (faulty): The Allisons in the P-39's had a 45 hr service life. The soviets were burning them up after 35 hrs. Partly this a factor from poor-quality aviation fuel. Partly it is a factor of pilot's using combat power more than Allison-GM had calculated on. I don't know any source of engine-change rate in the USSR for Merlins - the soviets were opperating both Spitfires and Hurricanes.

I have always thought [perhaps unfairly] that the US failed to produce a really good in-line engine throughout WW2. I love the sound of Allision engines but .... Where the US triumphed (over the germans, japanese and brits) was in developing great air-cooled radial engines. From the Jug to the B-29.

Did you take in the news within the last day or two that the Soviet pilot [claimed] that shot down Senator McCain died of cancer in Moscow ...? Talk about IRONY and twists and turns.

Chairs,

MM
Toronto

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by michaelmaltby

Thanks for the clarifications. Your reference to the P-51A/A-36 system is another "ironic" twist. The specs were from the RAF and were essentially intended for Curtis - as I understand it - but N. American said - "why not design a new platform" - and not just refine the P-40. And the N.American team came up with the Allison-powered P-51 [roughly the same price as as a Curtis P-40].

A slightly different view was that the RAF was on a buying mission for P-40's and Curtis was out of capacity trying to fill USAAF orders. NAA was able to convince the RAF that they had ability to a.) design a better fighter, and b.) achieve the same production numbers as Curtis if they built another plant.

The price for the P-51A was about 10K/unit higher on initial order but the Curtis team couldn't deliver to RAF schedule at any price.

As the A-36 dive bomber in Italy and the Med, it reportedly acquitted itself very well ... BUT ... it was the marriage of the airframe and laminar-flow wings to the RR Merlin ... that created the dream machine.

Unquestionably - and the Mustang I/P-51A and A-36 were all flying low to medium altitude missions - either Recce or fighter bomber. While not as good against 109 and 190 comparatively, the 51A still was a relatively close match in those engagements

Did you take in the news within the last day or two that the Soviet pilot [claimed] that shot down Senator McCain died of cancer in Moscow ...? Talk about IRONY and twists and turns.

Chairs,

MM
Toronto

McCain was shot down by an SA-2 SAM.. what was the alleged connection with a Soviet fighter pilot?

[Juha]

Hello Drgondog
only few Soviet AF Cobras had their M4s replaced by 23mm cannon, vast majority fought with M4.

Juha

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Juha

Hello Drgondog
only few Soviet AF Cobras had their M4s replaced by 23mm cannon, vast majority fought with M4.

Juha

Good to know, as I had heard and read differently.. what about the Hispanos on the D-1? About 300 were delivered to USSR IIRC and all armed with Hispano's.

[michaelmaltby]

I believe those delivered to the soviets with 20 mm Hispanos were originally RAF-ordered. The RAF tppk no P-39's (P-400's) with the Olds gun.

MM

[michaelmaltby]

Here is the [very suspect] link to the McCain shoot-down. I too believe he was sropped by a SAM:

Vietnam pilot who shot down US presidential candidate McCain dies | New World Order Influence

MM

[Juha]

Hello Drgondog
Sorry, I have no info on Hispanos and I hve to correct my earlier claim, the weapon Soviet used in place of M4 wasn't 23mm but 20mm B-20 and sometimes they also replaced .5s with 12,7mm Berezina UBSs.

Juha

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by michaelmaltby

I believe those delivered to the soviets with 20 mm Hispanos were originally RAF-ordered. The RAF tppk no P-39's (P-400's) with the Olds gun.

MM

That is correct. the P-400 and P-39D-1 were basically the same, including the M1 20mm (Hispano) replacing the M4. The D-2 retained the 37mm for USAAF and some went to USSR. IIRC all succeeding models had the M4.

That isn't waht we are scratching our heads about. The Sovs virtually had an analogue to the Hispano with their 20 and 23mm cannon and the 12.7mm for the M2 .50 cal.

Whether they performed 'receiving Depot' level replacements to replace the US guns is what I am trying to dig up.

[michaelmaltby]

Why not put THAT question to the US editorial link to the Russian lend-lease website? [per url]

grinbeiy@buffalostate.edu

Cheers,

MM

[Burmese Bandit]

Excellent posting MM!

Regarding the KingCobra development of the Cobra: it was supposedly supplied to the Soviets with the strict proviso that it was to be used only against the Japs and not against the Germans, who might copy the design.

I strongly suspect the Soviets reneged on the agreement.

On politics: Sasha Porykyshin loved the P-39 and is rumoured to have got all his kills on it. The claim that all his later kills came on the La-7 was an attempt by Soviet Propaganda to hide the embarassment of a top ace preferring foreign planes to local made...or so some sources say.