Question on M.S.406

[Fokker D21]

I have to agree with Vincenzo. The first P-40's went into service in early 1941 in the DAF (desert airforce) and only saw operational service in the USAAF in July 1942.

It's main opponents were Bf 109 F and G and Fw 190's.

[Fokker D21]

To answer Rousseau's question, my best guess is either on of these two:

1) The MS 406 is the older design. So perhaps in the other designs new developments also led to an improved oil cooler design.

2) The MS 406 has a semi retractable radiator. It is not unlikely that the oil cooler was supposed to do some of the engine cooling as well (perhaps even a significant part whith the radiator retracted). In the Bf 109 about one third of engine cooling is taken care of by the oil cooler. The three other fighters all have fixed radiators.

[Mangrove]

Originally Posted by Von Frag

Yes, they re-engined some with a Klimov 105 I think, and used Russian propellers. Top speed did not improve much, but the Morko (Ghost) could climb over 4,000 ft per minute.

Hi,

Ghost would be "haamu" in Finnish. Mörkö is more a "bogeyman" or "the Groke" from Moomin.

The speed advance against the original model was improved as much as 10% and climbing speed to 5,000 meters by two minutes from 10 to 8.

Martti

[waroff]

I think there is some error:






(from "Notice descriptive MS 406")

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by davebender

[url=http://france1940.free.fr/e41index.html]
There was a French Ms.406 squadron on Madagascar during the British invasion. Did they fight or sit the battle out?

There was one air combat in Madagascar of Ms406 v. FAA Martlets (F4F's) of 881 Sdn from HMS Illustrious, May 7, 1942. Of 4 Martlets, one belly landed after hit to the engine with 20mm; they claimed 4 Ms406's. Per French accounts only 3 Ms406's were present but all were shot down, 1 pilot killed.

The French force in Syria in June '41 included 18 Ms406's of GC I/7, later reinforced with 4 more, alongside a larger number of D520's. The only conclusive air combats by Moranes mentioned in that book are damage to a recon Hurricane June 7, one Morane downed by defensive fire from a Blenheim June 14, one Blenheim downed by Moranes July 4, one Wellington crashlanded after Morane night interception July 7. The conclusive fighter v. fighter actions in Syria all involved D.520's: among fighters D.520's downed 2 Tomahawks, 4 Hurricanes and 3 Fulmars for the loss of 3 to Tomahawks, 2 to Hurricanes and 4 to Gladiators. Those two campaigns Per "Dust Clouds over the Middle East" by Shores.

The other combat episode of Vichy Ms406's was in the Thai-French war of 1940-41. Around 20 Ms406's were the total French fighter strength in Indochina, against a larger but mainly biplane equipped Thai fighter force. They scored few victories confirmed by the Thai's though suffered no outright losses themsevles. Victories confirmed by the Thai's were 1 Mitubishi Ki-30 light bomber, and one Thai Hawk 75N (fixed undercarriage, 23mm podded cannon) crashlanded. One Morane landed on fire after combat with Hawk 75N's but was not counted lost by the French. Some or all the Moranes were missing their 20mm cannon though. In early 1942, after the French were forced to agree to Japanese bases in Indochina, Japanese Army Type 97 Fighters attacked Moranes once, mistaking them for AVG P-40's and shooting down 2. Per "l'Aviation Vichy au Combat" T.1 by Ehrengardt and Shores

Joe

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Clay_Allison

...and the sad stupid-looking P-26 Peashooter.

Saddest part of all is that the plane was originally designed with a one-piece wing and retractable undercarriage.
-----------------------------------------------------

Rosseau,

I don't know about the other planes, but it seems the D.520 had its oil cooler moved to a separate "cowling" that was located under the fuselage, sort of like a Spitfire or a P-51.





Elvis

[Twodeaddogs]

You'd wonder how much influence the D520 had on Soviet types.
regards
TDD

[VG-33]

Originally Posted by Milos Sijacki

Nice pics. Agree with You guys, OIL COOLER.

As long as we are talking about this plane, can someone tell me what was its combat history and what was it like in combat?

Cheers

Since i didn't found them in this thread, i venture to give you the right numbers from the SHAD, Armée de l'air archive's center.

1081 MS 406 produced, some later modified to MS 410 standards.

572 were on line on late august 1939, in 12 distinct fighter air groups.

Having a constant-speed propeller, pilot and fuel tank protection, it performed well during the "fonny war" against 109D, but was soon overclassed by the E model.

For this reason it was intended to be replaced by more modern fighters like the D-520, but due to huge delays in the replacement programm, only 6 groups began transformation in may 1940. 6 other planes fought on this plane until the end.

MS-406's were credited with 191 confirmed and 89 unconfirmed kills. 150 were lost due to battle damages before Battle of France begun to look like Barbarossa and 300 other MS-406 were abandonned or lost on the airfields during the retreat.

By general opinion was an easy, nimble and pleasant plane to fly, but was suffering from some technical troubles, and was outperformed by the 109 E. Nevertheless the improved MS-410 model was able to gain extra 25-35 km/h due to improved aerodynamics and new 910 hp Y-45 engine, and some other 15-20 km/h only by using propulsive exhaust pipes. In that form it was not inferior to the serial D-520.

Regards

[vanir]

Klimov M-105P was a derivative of the Hispano 12Y motor so it was a natural transition. At around 90cm boost (1.2atm) it's got similar output as the early Merlins (ca.1150hp WEP, 1100 military) and is rated for basic 80-87 octane. From what I've read Soviet fuel quality was poor in 1940-1. Two speed supercharger gives good performance at 1000 and 3000 metres but it performs poorly above 4000 metres and has no automatic boost regulation. The M-105PF (ca.1320hp WEP, 1260 military) was a recalibration for high fuel grade (100 octane) with 110cm maximum boost iirc (1.47atm). No other modifications were made to the basic engine.

Boost calibration for the M-105 continued to be adjusted as Soviet fuel quality improved later in the war. By 1943 boost was up to 115cm (PF2 motor) and finally in 1945 to something like 118cm (PF3 motors fitted to Yak-3), for a final return of some 1360hp military (2600rpm) and ca.1430hp WEP (2800-3000rpm) for a minute or two.

All of these are basically the same engine with the same supercharger and anciliaries (I think the PF3 made some other changes so is kind of a hybrid with some VK-107 parts), the only major difference between M-105P, PF and PF2 motors is essentially boost recalibration for different fuel qualities and later towards the end of '42 improved pistons were fitted.

Klimov motors captured during 1941 will invariably be M-105P, the PF started to appear after July '42 but the Leningrad front was very quick to adopt these, later series LaGG were flown sometimes straight from the factory without so much as a paintjob to the area. And existing 105P were recalibrated from this time at the field.
There were problems with the lend lease Hurricanes and Merlin engines had to be derated during '41 to use local fuel. Also they had to be drained of all fluids and serviced using local products or else they stopped working when temperatures plummetted. Some were just stripped of their armoured seats and radios so these could be fitted to local a/c like the LaGG and Il2.

Given the timescale of captured M-105 motors fitted to Finnish Moranes I'd have thought the PF motor was most likely, only training sqns would have the P because its recalibration was very simple and could be performed in the field, essentially once the authorisation for higher boost was given in mid-42 everybody ran around recalibrating their existing aircraft, as well as all new models coming from the factory featured the new boost calibration. The transition of 105P to PF was essentially only one of fuel quality.

The Morane is much like a Hurricane in build, being mixed construction and designed in that era. I guess fitting one with a ~1300hp Klimov makes it fairly similar to a MkII with poorer altitude performance. It's a bit of a jump from the 12Y31 in the MS.406 in any case, which is roughly a ~900hp motor.

I think of the Klimov as very much like an Allison in the P-40, generally underrated because of its altitude performance but otherwise actually a very contemporary high performance aero engine.

[Altea]

Hello Vanir,

I have to desagree on some points.

Originally Posted by vanir

Klimov M-105P was a derivative of the Hispano 12Y motor so it was a natural transition. At around 90cm boost (1.2atm) it's got similar output as the early Merlins (ca.1150hp WEP, 1100 military) and is rated for basic 80-87 octane. From what I've read Soviet fuel quality was poor in 1940-1. Two speed supercharger gives good performance at 1000 and 3000 metres but it performs poorly above 4000 metres and has no automatic boost regulation.

Klimov engines were intended to use from 91-92 to 95-96 octane graded fuels from the M-103 model. All were qualified at 94 octane number during state trials.

The M-105P was rated at 1100 hp for take off in 1940.
1020 hp at nominal boost 910 mmHg at SL
1100 hp at 2000 m
1050 hp at 4000 m.

Some docs give 920-930 mmHg for the M-105PA at nominal at SL.

But this is a kind of rethorical problem, all pilots actually used 950 mm hp for M-105 engines from 1941 for nominal (no time limits) regime.

So 1150 hp for Klimov, it’s from western (finish, german ?) sources, since no modification occured in official soviet 1939’s charts for the 105P, PA, RA series...But it’s certainly closer to the truth than outdated soviet chart’s.

I don’t know what do you mean by WEP, Military etc cause neither Hispanos nor Klimov had WEP, combat, military or any extra over boosted power of any kind until the Klimov 107A appraisal. Only “nominal”, that can be translated by “normal” or “max continuous course” power.

The M-105PF (ca.1320hp WEP, 1260 military) was a recalibration for high fuel grade (100 octane) with 110cm maximum boost iirc (1.47atm). No other modifications were made to the basic engine.

Soviets had no 100 octane fuel until late in war,except from Lend Lease deliveries. With standard 94 one (in fact real octane number 91-92) the M-105PF gave in spring of 1942

1210 hp at SL at 1050 mmHg both nominal and T.O. (In fact it had no T-Off. overboost)
1260 hp at 0700 m
1180 hp at 2700 m

Boost calibration for the M-105 continued to be adjusted as Soviet fuel quality improved later in the war. By 1943 boost was up to 115cm (PF2 motor) and finally in 1945 to something like 118cm (PF3 motors fitted to Yak-3), for a final return of some 1360hp military (2600rpm) and ca.1430hp WEP (2800-3000rpm) for a minute or two.

The PF-2 gave in mid 1943

1290 hp at SL
1320 hp at 0300 m
1240 hp at 2200 m
all with 94,5 octanes fuel at nominal, since it had no more WEP or military or combat rew as usual.

The 105 PF-3 only exists in western old sources and might be (who knows?) in Klimov’s design bureau drawing boards and experimental variants...

Some pilots remember 100 octanes (blue) LL use in their front-line Yaks, with a 20 km/h speed gain and some overheating. But nothing official issued from soviet industry.

All of these are basically the same engine with the same supercharger and anciliaries (I think the PF3 made some other changes so is kind of a hybrid with some VK-107 parts), the only major difference between M-105P, PF and PF2 motors is essentially boost recalibration for different fuel qualities and later towards the end of '42 improved pistons were fitted.

False, the 3Б-78 (and 4Б-78 used on M-82) soviet fuels always had 93-95 (and 95-96) o. number from 1939, with some quality fall to 91-92 in some midwar deliveries.

Klimov motors captured during 1941 will invariably be M-105P, the PF started to appear after July '42 but the Leningrad front was very quick to adopt these, later series LaGG were flown sometimes straight from the factory without so much as a paintjob to the area. And existing 105P were recalibrated from this time at the field.

Don’t think so, serial 105PF had modified crankshafs, moving weights dispatching and slightly compression rate reduction, due to modified piston and p- bearer design. But if you have some concrete examples...

There were problems with the lend lease Hurricanes and Merlin engines had to be derated during '41 to use local fuel. Also they had to be drained of all fluids and serviced using local products or else they stopped working when temperatures plummetted. Some were just stripped of their armoured seats and radios so these could be fitted to local a/c like the LaGG and Il2.

Given the timescale of captured M-105 motors fitted to Finnish Moranes I'd have thought the PF motor was most likely, only training sqns would have the P because its recalibration was very simple and could be performed in the field, essentially once the authorisation for higher boost was given in mid-42 everybody ran around recalibrating their existing aircraft, as well as all new models coming from the factory featured the new boost calibration. The transition of 105P to PF was essentially only one of fuel quality.

Where could they taken the 105PF from? Finish sources quote captured airwothy 105P, certainly ex german captured from 41 to 42. Moroever 105PF reduction gear axis was about 100 mm higher than the previous 105P (from Yak family specialists: Stépanets, Kuznetsov). It’s generally forgotten in plastic kits. So for the 100 mm wing move aft from the Yak-1 to the 7. You have to redesign your plane’s nose for that.

The Morane is much like a Hurricane in build, being mixed construction and designed in that era. I guess fitting one with a ~1300hp Klimov makes it fairly similar to a MkII with poorer altitude performance. It's a bit of a jump from the 12Y31 in the MS.406 in any case, which is roughly a ~900hp motor.

I think of the Klimov as very much like an Allison in the P-40, generally underrated because of its altitude performance but otherwise actually a very contemporary high performance aero engine.

I think that the Klimov was a tremendously better engine than the P-40’s Allison at low hights and max continuous power*, with the same octanes numbers fuel.


* Considering that fair condition, Hispano-S were not far behind german or british best engines in 1939-40.

Regards

[Altea]

Originally Posted by Twodeaddogs

You'd wonder how much influence the D520 had on Soviet types.
regards
TDD

And BTW, You'd not wonder how much influence had I-17on French (and other) types




TsKB-19

[Vincenzo]

Altea are you sure that nominal it's same of max continous ?

[vanir]

The ratings Altea gave are for the max climb rating at 2600rpm, essentially in this case it is the maximum continuous engine speed with the maximum boost allowed. You could raise engine speed safely to 2800-3000rpm but only for a very short period, this would provide higher outputs, but it would be called a war emergency rating. True enough there is no overboost per se, but an extra 2-400rpm adds horsepower in the torque x engine speed equation from which horsepower is calculated, simply raising rpm increases horsepower if manifold pressure is maintained. Maximum boost is effectively overboost on Yaks anyway because the listed maximum boost pushes the handle just past its gatestop (ie. it goes a little further forward than the maximum rpm setting for the prop pitch where for normal engine settings the two are aligned together).

I think you'll find also the Soviet octane rating will vary by calculation, I was using motor method, which minimalises it. Your figure will be an average of motor method and rated octane number. You get the same thing with British fuels, their 100 octane is actually 130 RON. So compared to "Soviet 95 octane," British 100 octane fuel is 115 octane. In addition, in any case fuel qualities vary by where it was mined and the refining processes and additives used. For this reason fuel octanes compare poorly between varied sources, German 96 octane (also using the motor method) is equivalent to 100/130 early in the war and 100/150 late in the war (Crumpp who built the Fw190A "White 1" told me this himself as he had to research a great deal about wartime fuels for his rebuilt BMW801 motor). British 87 octane was a typical prewar aviation fuel, used on most of their fighters and good for +6lbs on a Merlin engine. Upon the British adoption of 100 octane aviation fuel for fighters the Merlins were recalibrated for +12lbs. The +12lbs of Hurricane lend lease deliveries could not be used with Soviet fighter aviation fuel in 1941 and these engines had to be derated to no more than +6lbs. This is the reason for my likening of the Soviet fuel quality as (equivalent to) 87 octane British aviation fuel. American 91 octane fuel is the same as British 87 octane, again good for only +6lbs on a Merlin (or +8lbs or 47" Hg on an Allison). There is no doubt given the VK-107 and M82FN development during 1943 that Soviet fuel quality had improved, not for the least reason being the lend lease LF MkV Spits and Airacobras received did not have to be derated for the previous demonstrably poor Soviet fuel quality of 1941.

All I can say is not everything may be recorded for prosperity, but are still indicated by circumstance and physical example, by simple engineering realities. Many, if not most, if not all VVS a/c from 1943 could not possibly be run on the fuel type for which the Hurricanes had to be derated to +6lbs, the Soviet fuel type available in 1941.

About the engine settings, this is exactly the same as the issue about the listed output of the F3R Allison in the P40E, 1150hp at 11000ft says the book but this is not the maximum output of the engine which was first cleared for 1480hp to ~7000ft by Allison Division during 1941 and then finally 1680hp to 5000ft. Maximum pressure altitude may be increased by ram effect.
Yet still engineering tables list 1150hp for the Allison at 3000-3200rpm. And what's more at 3200rpm using ram effect you can manage over 1700hp pretty surely, again if you use a war emergency setting. This is frequently not even listed in manufacturer specifications, who tend to offer only the International rating (maximum continuous power) or the maximum climb rating (military power). Some give maximum take off power.

The 1100hp rating for the M-105P is for 2600rpm (as mentioned above, max continuous engine speed with maximum boost). The motor can do 3000rpm (though it is not advised to exceed 2800rpm, which is the listed maximum engine speed). You do the math. Same argument for the other motors. Just to be clear for any translation difficulties for non-english native tongues, pretty much any engine of the type can be run at a continuous setting, or a medium period military setting for climbing regimes, or an all out war emergency setting which overheats the motor quickly. This is because aero engine settings were almost completely under the control of the pilot back then and he had far more control over the way the engine handled than what you get with a flight computer or automatic management system, control of the motor was very manual. This was the reason for operational procedures being a matter of manufacturer released guidelines, any pilot could if he wanted to exceed the factory rated specifications for operation of the engine, exceed its maximum safe engine speed, ask his mechanic to recalibrate the throttle to the boost regulator for a higher than maximum overboost. A pilot could always do these things, he was not supposed to but sometimes pilots found their own better than manufacturer settings during actual service, and the manufacturer revised their operating procedures to suit. This happened exactly with the F-series Allison for example. In any case pretty much any engine of this type can be run at a military, continuous or a war emergency setting, even if the manufacturer only lists output ratings for one of these engine settings. Did you know the DB601A has a war emergency rating which is also simply a raised engine speed, or that the output listed for the Merlin 45 in the MkV Spit is a war emergency rating which can only be maintained for 5min, it's more like 1150hp just like an Allison at the 30min military setting, and as mentioned the Allison's rating is for military power.

I'm still trying to find the Russian aviation website article I read about field recalibration for the PF boost, it was a TsAGI article, I'll link it when I do. The carburettor was rejetted to prevent predetonation (the mixture needed to be richened) but the new pistons came for the 115cm boost of the PF2 iirc. They used to be cast and they switched to alloy for the PF2.
The PF2 entered service with the Yak-9 and this motor is not interchangeable with the 105P, true enough different pistons and perhaps reduction gear I don't know. The PF though was just a boost recalibration and it was fuel quality associated, I remember this clearly. The article which described test flights by TsAGI of various production improvements clearly stated no modifications to the motor itself was made between 105P and PF motors, it made a point of it.
If you have links with better detail I'd appreciate it. I'm not that excited that I'm going to go buy some books though, this is just a web forum challenge. I'm already comfortable with much of my research thus far.

[tomo pauk]

Great post(s), Vanir. I really enjoy reading them

[Shortround6]

Aviation fuels from WWII do not really compare to motor fuels of today.

Each countery may have had their own specifications that included not only octane rating (how ever a country decided to measure it) but octane ratings at lean and rich settings ( british were the FIRST to specify this) BTUs per pound, Reid vapor pressure ratings, percentage of of Aromatics permitted, evaporation rates, sulfer content, amount of gum, even the max and min amounts of dye.

Becasue of the different base stocks, gasoline of the same basic "octane rating" did perform differently.

Specifications also changed from before the war to during the war to post war. Some fuel's specifications might not have changed while others did. Something else to watch for, at least in the case of the US, is that military fuel specifications did not always match commercial aviation fuel specs. By 1951 this even went to different allowable limits for the amount of lead per gallon for the two different 100/130 fuels.

As far as "over speeding" engines goes, this can be gotten away with while diving to some extent. Throttle is part closed and the propeller is actually driving the engine. THe partially shut throttle restricts the amount of intake air and so limits the amout of power the engine is producing. Over revving the engine under full throttle conditions is a bit riskier.
On a gear driven supercharger there is no seperate control over over the supercharger speed. I have one source that says high gear on the M -105 engine was 10 to 1 so if the engine is turning 2600rpm the supercharger is turning 26,000rpm. inceasing the RPM by of the engine by 300 means the supercharger HAS TO increase speed by 3000rpm. since the pressure delivered by the supercharger is proportional to the square of the impeller tip speed we can see that,unless there are restictions in the intake and outtakes (ducting/manifolds) there is going to be a very large increase in airflow and power. This inceases the manifold pressure as the rpm goes up.
Both the origianol Hispano and the Russian M-105 were rather large engines (displacement wise) on the order of 36 liters or so or just a bit under a Griffon. They had a longer stroke than a Griffon and yet weighed less than a Merlin or Allison. Given that rod bearing loads go up with the square of the speed and the light construction of these engines I am not sure I see much overrevving/overboosting of these engines.
I am sure it was done on occasion but some of the WAR emergency power ratings were only approved after a test engine had gone 7 1/2 hours on test bench at that rating. THis is to allow for production variations between engines so that the WORST engine out of every 100 doesn't blow itself up in a matter of seconds when abused in this way.

As an aside I believe it almost became a courtmartial offense for British mechanics to "modify" the boost setting controls on the Napair Sabre engine after more than a couple of engines were destroyed by mechanics who "knew better" than the factory engineers