Questions about the VG-33 and Miles M.20 - Aircraft of World War II

Clay_Allison · 12-29-2008, 02:16 AM

Just prior to the war there existed a concept that many governments toyed with. A light fighter plane, made of non-strategic materials (plywood) and dragged around the sky by a Rolls Royce Kestrel, Junkers Jumo or HS 12Y, engines too weak to power a modern full size fighter but at one time in plentiful supply. If a fighter plane is the sports car of the air, this concept was the motorcycle.

The English, caught with their pants down in the BoB were nearly forced to revert to arming advanced trainers (the Miles Master) and toyed with making a plane that went from a blank piece of paper to its first flight in 2 weeks (the Miles M.20).

The French had three companies try to come up with something and the best of them was the Arsenal VG-33. It was nice looking fighter, evoking images of some of the pretty and fun to fly but pathetically underarmed Italian fighters. Apparently it could have been built in incredible numbers and was to be powered by an Allison had the idea not arrived when Hitler was sitting in a railroad car accepting French surrender.

My question is, did this idea have any merit?

Assume for a moment that you are a country starved of fighters that needs them (Australia or Finland for example) and this idea comes to you in time to get the project rolling (1935 for example). Assume you can get the engines (say a license Allison V-1710, Klimov 105 or DB-600 depending on your alliance), you can build the fighters, and you can arm them with at least a pair of good 20mm cannon. Remember that when you replace them with better fighters later in the war, they could continue to be good advanced trainers.

If you were the head of the war department of X-Country would you approve of such a program, or was this a concept that looks good on paper but only ends in tears?

Waynos · 12-29-2008, 06:25 AM

Australia got further down this line than any other country as far as I know, the Commonwealth Boomerang has its roots in the T-6 Texan.

Was it called the Boomerang in the hope that it would always come back, I wonder?

I would imagine the idea would only really have merit if you had the facilities and pilots to make enough to swamp your enemy, in which case why not devote those facilities to making smaller numbers of much better aircraft? Interesting question though.

As for what Britain nearly had to do in the BoB, I will leave this thread on topic except to say that many ideas were investigated like armed trainers, just in case, but none of them came close to being used.

Clay_Allison · 12-29-2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waynos

Australia got further down this line than any other country as far as I know, the Commonwealth Boomerang has its roots in the T-6 Texan.

Was it called the Boomerang in the hope that it would always come back, I wonder?

I would imagine the idea would only really have merit if you had the facilities and pilots to make enough to swamp your enemy, in which case why not devote those facilities to making smaller numbers of much better aircraft? Interesting question though.

As for what Britain nearly had to do in the BoB, I will leave this thread on topic except to say that many ideas were investigated like armed trainers, just in case, but none of them came close to being used.

I was aware of the Boomerang but didn't think to mention it, maybe because I just don't like fat stubby Brewster Buffalo-looking fighters.

Fortunately for the brits, the Hurricane was already suited to mass production so there was no need to produce another cheaper fighter.

The Soviet Union really got farther than anyone with the concept, further reading has shown me that the MiG-3 was as close to what I'm talking about as anything.

Waynos · 12-29-2008, 01:13 PM

I didn't know that about the MiG 3. Shows what a good job they made then as I always thought of it as a 'normal' fighter.

Eurofighter · 12-29-2008, 11:01 PM

I didn't know that about the MiG-3 either, from what I understand the aircraft did a poor job during the first stages of the war between Nazi Germany and the USSR because it was forced to fight at low altitude where it was found to be inferior against Germans fighters. As far as the question goes seeing my self in the task of building an air force, I think I would be skeptical about the cocept; I think I would rather choose quality instead of quantity. That's my personal opinion.

Clay_Allison · 12-30-2008, 01:41 AM

I kind of have a design idea for a light fighter that would have had many of the advantages of the A6M without the (same) drawbacks. A 2-ton plywood plane looking like a small He 100 or one of the beautiful late war Italian fighters pulled by a 1200 HP Allison and toting 2*20mm Cannon, 300 rounds each set for 250 meters convergence.

The expected result would be an aircraft with very high speed and accelleration, good climb due to low weight, but would share with the Zero a total lack of pilot protection. While it should not have the high speed handling issues as the Zero, it would lack the Zero's range, and I fear its roll rate would be very fast and the controls would be overly sensitive rather than losing sensitivity, especially in roll rate. Landing speed might be on the high side as well.

Basically, it would be a racing and aerobatics plane with guns on and while very dangerous to the enemy, you'd have to be highly agressive and a little crazy to want to fly it into combat. It would be like a lighter, sleeker, prettier MiG-3 with an American engine.

merlin · 01-01-2009, 12:33 PM

The RAF had the advantage over the French - in that they had aero engines available in the range of 1,000 hp to fit in their fighters. The French were to a large extent limited by the lower powered Hispano-Suiza 860 hp 12y engine. For example the MS 406 was a much better aircraft when the Finns fitted captured Russian engines in it.
The Arsenal VG-33 wasn't that 'light' - the weight parameters were comparable with the Me109 for example. Whereas the Caudron C.714 was lightweight - with a loaded weight of 3,858 lbs. Moreover, there was development potential in the VG-30 Series, whereas the Poles were glad to be rid of the Caudron's.

Clay_Allison · 01-02-2009, 03:44 AM

the VG-30 series may have been just more smooth than light. The pictures show a very well streamlined plane like the He-100 that broke the airspeed record in tests and the very pretty late war Italian fighters. Perhaps its' performance was due to good aerodynamics.

12-29-2008, 02:16 AM	#1
Clay_Allison Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 925	Questions about the VG-33 and Miles M.20 Just prior to the war there existed a concept that many governments toyed with. A light fighter plane, made of non-strategic materials (plywood) and dragged around the sky by a Rolls Royce Kestrel, Junkers Jumo or HS 12Y, engines too weak to power a modern full size fighter but at one time in plentiful supply. If a fighter plane is the sports car of the air, this concept was the motorcycle. The English, caught with their pants down in the BoB were nearly forced to revert to arming advanced trainers (the Miles Master) and toyed with making a plane that went from a blank piece of paper to its first flight in 2 weeks (the Miles M.20). The French had three companies try to come up with something and the best of them was the Arsenal VG-33. It was nice looking fighter, evoking images of some of the pretty and fun to fly but pathetically underarmed Italian fighters. Apparently it could have been built in incredible numbers and was to be powered by an Allison had the idea not arrived when Hitler was sitting in a railroad car accepting French surrender. My question is, did this idea have any merit? Assume for a moment that you are a country starved of fighters that needs them (Australia or Finland for example) and this idea comes to you in time to get the project rolling (1935 for example). Assume you can get the engines (say a license Allison V-1710, Klimov 105 or DB-600 depending on your alliance), you can build the fighters, and you can arm them with at least a pair of good 20mm cannon. Remember that when you replace them with better fighters later in the war, they could continue to be good advanced trainers. If you were the head of the war department of X-Country would you approve of such a program, or was this a concept that looks good on paper but only ends in tears? Last edited by Clay_Allison; 12-29-2008 at 02:21 AM.

12-29-2008, 06:25 AM	#2
Waynos Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 914	Australia got further down this line than any other country as far as I know, the Commonwealth Boomerang has its roots in the T-6 Texan. Was it called the Boomerang in the hope that it would always come back, I wonder? I would imagine the idea would only really have merit if you had the facilities and pilots to make enough to swamp your enemy, in which case why not devote those facilities to making smaller numbers of much better aircraft? Interesting question though. As for what Britain nearly had to do in the BoB, I will leave this thread on topic except to say that many ideas were investigated like armed trainers, just in case, but none of them came close to being used. __________________ BlondeValkyrie - Bugger off and host your OWN pictures you thieving twat

12-29-2008, 01:13 PM	#4
Waynos Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 914	I didn't know that about the MiG 3. Shows what a good job they made then as I always thought of it as a 'normal' fighter. __________________ BlondeValkyrie - Bugger off and host your OWN pictures you thieving twat

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

12-29-2008, 11:01 PM	#5
Eurofighter Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 26	I didn't know that about the MiG-3 either, from what I understand the aircraft did a poor job during the first stages of the war between Nazi Germany and the USSR because it was forced to fight at low altitude where it was found to be inferior against Germans fighters. As far as the question goes seeing my self in the task of building an air force, I think I would be skeptical about the cocept; I think I would rather choose quality instead of quantity. That's my personal opinion.

12-30-2008, 01:41 AM	#6
Clay_Allison Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 925	I kind of have a design idea for a light fighter that would have had many of the advantages of the A6M without the (same) drawbacks. A 2-ton plywood plane looking like a small He 100 or one of the beautiful late war Italian fighters pulled by a 1200 HP Allison and toting 2*20mm Cannon, 300 rounds each set for 250 meters convergence. The expected result would be an aircraft with very high speed and accelleration, good climb due to low weight, but would share with the Zero a total lack of pilot protection. While it should not have the high speed handling issues as the Zero, it would lack the Zero's range, and I fear its roll rate would be very fast and the controls would be overly sensitive rather than losing sensitivity, especially in roll rate. Landing speed might be on the high side as well. Basically, it would be a racing and aerobatics plane with guns on and while very dangerous to the enemy, you'd have to be highly agressive and a little crazy to want to fly it into combat. It would be like a lighter, sleeker, prettier MiG-3 with an American engine.

01-01-2009, 12:33 PM	#7
merlin Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cardiff Posts: 263	The RAF had the advantage over the French - in that they had aero engines available in the range of 1,000 hp to fit in their fighters. The French were to a large extent limited by the lower powered Hispano-Suiza 860 hp 12y engine. For example the MS 406 was a much better aircraft when the Finns fitted captured Russian engines in it. The Arsenal VG-33 wasn't that 'light' - the weight parameters were comparable with the Me109 for example. Whereas the Caudron C.714 was lightweight - with a loaded weight of 3,858 lbs. Moreover, there was development potential in the VG-30 Series, whereas the Poles were glad to be rid of the Caudron's.

01-02-2009, 03:44 AM	#8
Clay_Allison Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 925	the VG-30 series may have been just more smooth than light. The pictures show a very well streamlined plane like the He-100 that broke the airspeed record in tests and the very pretty late war Italian fighters. Perhaps its' performance was due to good aerodynamics.