Reichsverteidigung

[Erich]

side note

Udet I am well awre of the Freiburg listings and the 56 plus bombers/fighters that JG 301 scored but the tally was recounted after the claims had gone in and at least 1/2 could not be documented and were dissallowed. Even the German records after this activity did not give full credit to JG 301's attack but I have listed whom scored as a confirmation. I also have all the losses records of JG 301 this date and to tell you the turth it is very sad. here is one lad, robbed of his youth

[Udet]

Erich:

What was that all about? I did not suggest anything that might put your experience and knowledge on the matter into doubt.

You have admitted you still have stuff yet to be learned though.

The units and numbers i posted include all Luftwaffe victories in the entire west on November 26, 1944; they did not focus on a specific battle or engagement.

But i am sure you got the point, so the remark is not necessary.

Now the questions:

(1) Are you suggesting the anerkennung for November -with the exception of the pilots you cited- are false?

If so, someone made them up?


(2) You are mentioning 25 confirmed kills for JG 301 only. Do you have any confirmed victories for the other units who flew everywhere in the west during November 26?


(3) I did not get your point when mentioning JG 27 and IV./ JG 54 flew together. Meaning they would scramble together from each base to attack?

What was the point in mentioning those geschwadern?

You know that by late 1944, there were days where units simply did not fly, whether to lick the wounds of the previous day battle or the lack of fuel.

If a specific JG in Reichsverteidigung does not appear in the claims list of a given day, you can check the logs of that unit and know the reason or reasons as to why they do not appear. Perhaps they did not fly that day.

[Erich]

Udet we obviously have a problem with our communication it appears. I do not think you understand my basis for making the remarks that I did. First I have been studying this aerial battle for more than 20 years and have had access to both US and German archivs besides at least 6 German researchers, a German artist/Historian and a Swiss researcher and several US P-51 pilots from the 2nd SF and the 339th fg as I am a friend of the group. if you would like I can list all the Luftw. units involved for the 26 November attack agasint the heavies and can ssure you it did not reach 128.

more later as my time has run out and will explain why JG 27 and IV./JG 54 flew together as well as JG 1 and 6.

[Udet]

Erich:

You said:

"just so you are aware my friend I have a 4 inch thick file just on 26 November 44 alone. And this file has been accumulated for many many years due to my cousins operations and his subsquent loss in battle this date."

That is why my "what was that all about?"

That i did not put into doubt the knowledge and experience you have on the matter.

I would appreciate it very greatly if you could explain a bit further on the questions i made.

[Erich]

ok the annerk. you mentioned is for what was put in as a claim and had to be verified. Because it is late 1944 onward till wars end there was no official tabluture of victoires any more. This had to be done by the Jagdgeschwadern historians themselves.

a couple of things not all Jagdgeschwaders are covered in writing, example being the gruppe FW 190A-8 equipped IV./JG 54 as one.

the unit took of from a seperate base and then came into contact with JG 27 and felw right behind it as part of JG 27's attacking force agasint B-17's. The same goes for JG 1 and JG 6 when they attacked B-17's.

JG 301 had 22 confirmed kills not 25. The 56 were presented due to the complete chaos of the mission. the 56 wqere presented and sent into the oficial documenting source and then rejected when the gorunds were covered showing/photograhing and IDing the ture US losses. what can be said with confidence is the German pilot losses this date. I have questions regarding this date with answers hopefully in a weeks time from Hans Müller and Will Reschke so I will translate them out and prsent them here in due course.

yes I have the kills claimed by the other Geschwadern and will post them shortly. A side line another more noted air battle involving over 100 kills is the 11 january 1944 raid. I have a close Dutch friend covering this mission with some interesting info. A book from another Dutch author has been written on the air battle through Hikkoki publications from England.

[Erich]

for 26 November 44

Stab./JG 1 1 4 motor bomber
I./JG 1 0
II./JG 1 2 B-24............no it was B-17's

I./JG 4 1 P-38, 2 P-47's

III./JG 6 2 B-24 ............no it was B-17's

I./JG 26 1 P-51
III./JG 26 4 B-24..........no they were B-17's, and 1 Spitfire

I./JG 27 1 P-51
II./JG 27 1 P-51, and 1 P-47
III./JG 27 1 P-51
IV./JG 27 2 B-17, 4 P-51, 1 P-47

IV./JG 54 1 B-17 of the 381st bg, and 6 other B-17's HSS (shot out of formation)

JG 301: I gave what was listed as what was confirmed and in reality they shot down 22 B-24's, the names of the pilots are given in a previous post. Not the claims listed in Freiburgs Chef für Auszeichnung und Disziplin which is the overall CLAIMS lists NOT confirmations of the units recorded by the seperate unit historians and administratiors.

[Erich]

alrightie then.................here's another one that I have been researching for quite some time.

During the Ardenne fiasco: 23.12.44

where US medium bomber forces were sent to plaster rail and road cross-roads and airifelds supported by US P-38's, P-47's and P-51's.

A huge amount of claims were given for this date esepcailly by JG's 11 and the STurmFw gruppe IV.Sturm/JG 3.

135 German a/c were shot down with 64 KIA and 4 POW and 36 wounded.

IVth gruppe of JG 3 probably destroyed 1/2 of of a B-26 and part of another on their rear attacks with the losses of 8 Fw 190A-8/R8's. My friend Oskar Bösch lost his engine due to his fule line being shot out as he crept closer and closer to the B-26 formation, a P-47 assaulted his SturmFw and he banked over hard and the Jug flew away. Oskar was a first hand witness to the destructive power of 2cm and 3cm weaponry from his kameraden as the Mine Geschoss tore the tails off numerous B-26's. After the days event the Sturm unit ws given credit for 31 B-26's and 3 P-47's. In the Official IV./JG 3 history they are given the same credit with FW Harry Wald scoring 3 kills. The overall 9th AF history gives a total loss of 42 B-26's for the day and some 14 P-47's and 2 P-38's. 8th AF lost 1 B-17 and 5 P-51 and 3 P-47's.

the other high scorer flying behind a different B-26 group, possibly 2 claimed by I. and II./JG 11 anopther 25 B-26's.

29 single engine gruppen took part in this huge action claiming

33 P-47's
3 P-38's
6 P-51's
! Spitfire
1 Mosquito

6 Lancasters
1 B-17
73 B-26's

a real oddity, when I interviewed the two historians of the 2 B-26's goups that IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacked I was given a reply that no B-26 history existed and what you will find is already on the net........... a single page of garbage covering an overall history of the units and citations they received. Each one receiving a commendation, etc. for their participation on the horrid 23 December 44 air battle, nothing on losses or even the pics or coverage of the land taget that they reached.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Erich the raid that is in question on Nov, 26, 1944, is that the raid that you cousin was shot down on? By the way I have not made it back up to the site maybe next weekend.

[Erich]

yes you are correct Eagle ! thanks for rejoining on the efforts. Take the little Mrs. out for a wurst and Bier afterward or maybe since this area is north a nice glas of Wein ?

Wanted to finish the 23 December 44 thread by stating that Oskar bailed out really low due to having former members of the Gruppe shot down while in their parachutes so it was ordered that the Sturmgruppen pilots bail out at around 500 feet of the deck. Oskar pulled the chute but it partially collapsed and he fell fortunately into some tall spruce trees filled with snow which broke his fall. hanging by his parachute he tried first to get down and slowly cutting the slings of the chute. having done that he climbed down ever so softly but kept busting out limbs of all sizes until he fell some 60 or so feet and landed in a huge snow drift. having twisted his leg he managed to get out as night was approaching. Seeing a small village in the distance he hobbled over to a couple of soliders who then were able to release his parachute and get Oskar back on the nearest train for base the following day as he was thought to be MIA.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That would be a story to tell your grandkids!

[Udet]

Erich, hallo:

Let me see if I fully understood your posting regarding december 23, 1944:

POINT 1. GERMAN CLAIMS-VICTORIES

1.1 Fw190s of IV.(sturm)/JG 3 were credited with the following kills that particular day -official kills according to the geschwader records-:

31 B-26s and
3 P-47S.

Is point 1.1 correct?

1.2 I/ JG 11 destroyed 2 B-17s
II/JG 11 destroyed 25 B-26s.

Is point 1.2 correct?


POINT 2. 9th Air Force reported losses are:

42 B-26s
14 P-47s
2 P-38s

Is point 2 correct?


POINT 3. 8th Air Force reported losses are:

1 B-17
5 P-51s
3 P-47s

Is point 3 correct?


POINT 4. What you meant there is that when you interviewed a pair of historians of B-26 groups they told you "absolutely nothing happened on december 23, 1944"?

Also that the webpage they referred is garbbage?

Are your thoughts they hid records?



So 64 KIA and 4 POW and 36 wounded for the Germans. In fact high losses.

Now 42 B-26s lost in accordance with the records of the 9th Air force alone makes 294 pilots and airmen lost. More than 5 times the total German losses of men.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Are we trying to dispute the number of casualties by the 9th Airforce here or what exactly are we trying to dispute?

[Erich]

Udet I think the JG 11 claims are a bit high, but the two 9th AF historians and veterans are hiding something.......they hae the losses and whom it was as I aksed for the names of the crews and the name of their B-26's and ID numbers. Absolutely nothing from them. the web-sites have nothing and I was told to check on two other sites dedicated to the b-26. Still nothing. Really hard for me to beleive that the B-26 units involved on this terrible mission have not gone into details with the MACR reports.

In fact because of the extremely high losses to the 9th AF the US 8th AF planned numerous heavy bomber missions on the Luftwaffe airifelds to pound them into dust the next date the 24th of December 44.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Erich do you know of any bombing raids on Stuttgart or the area around it in late 1944 and early 1945?

[Udet]

Der Adler:

As you know Erich has tons of info regarding the fierce battles between Reichsverteidigung units and the USAAF and RAF.

There is no specific agenda i guess. Erich continues to bring up interesting facts and we can proceed to exchange views and data as the info flows in.

Erich, the B-26 medium bomber had a crew of 7. So if we stick to the B-26 losses (42 bombers) reported by the 9th Air Force alone we have 294 pilots and airmen which failed to return to base that day (in this cases you can assume the majority of them were KIAs)

That is what the western allies fail to specify: that even if German losses were very high several of those days of mid-late 1944, theirs would usually be higher -breath taking in some cases- in terms of pilots and airmen.

294 pilots and crews (B-26s only, 9th Air Force alone) against 56 German pilots KIA means more than 5 times men lost for the USAAF on that particular day.

29 gruppen took part in the action of december 23? I have some in my notebook...do you have the gruppen numbers involved?


Erich, what amazes me is to know -for the first time- you have experienced suspicious behavior from USAAF historians yourself. If they hide something, what could that be Erich?

The answer should be easy: extremely high losses at the hands of the Luftwaffe.

December 29, 1944: this is the time when they claim the Luftwaffe had "nothing left to put up a fight but ill-trained kids". You know, in the mind of most people who are not deep into the issue, the view is that by late 1944, P-51 pilots carried pop-corn in their cockpits shooting down Germans at will.

Have you ever thought they want to keep the logic of the events officially registered in history?

Allowing new researchers and historias to get their noses on the actual records could disrupt the sense and the logic of what the world has been told.

Erich, if you have an employee at your company with a file of frauds committed in his former jobs, what makes you think he would not do it in your company?

If they are doing that with December 29, 1944 why not to do it with other battles? Why not November 26, 1944?