Replace Me-109 with Me-155? - Aircraft of World War II

davebender · 08-09-2009, 02:35 PM

Blohm & Voss BV 155 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
During 1942 Messerschmitt designed the Me-155 for use on German aircraft carriers. Supposedly the design was complete by September 1942, just in time to be cancelled along with the German CV program.
1 x 1,475 hp DB605 engine.
Wide track landing gear.
3 x MG151/20 cannon. Prop shaft plus 1 in each wing.
403 mph estimated max speed.

Messerschmitt Me 209-II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
During 1943 Messerschmitt designed the Me-209 II as a replacement for the Me-109 series. This aircraft was powered by a DB603 engine. The shortage of DB603 engines was probably the major factor why the Me-209 II did not superceed the Me-109.

Why didn't the Luftwaffe select the Me-155 as a replacement for the aging Me-109 series starting in 1943? There were plenty of DB605 engines available.

DAVIDICUS · 08-09-2009, 03:04 PM

It looks like in February of 1943 they were looking at the Fiat G55 as a replacement for the 109.

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/g55/G55his.htm#his3

Transcript from the German official BA-MA archives courtesy of Civettone:

AWM 54 423/4/103 Part 63, Report of a Conference held by Reichsmarschall Goering on 22 February 1943

Milch: ... Perhaps Petersen can inform us on this question and also about the comparison flights in Italy.

Petersen: ... There will be a further report about comparison flights with all the Italian types ... Against this, the Italian fighter is equal to the German fighter, especially as regards rate of climb. They are also superior in armament. The Fiat 55 aircraft has four cannon and a performance similar to that of the German aircraft, although powered by an engine that
is a hundred horsepower less.

Peltz: Were they series or experimental aircraft?

Petersen: There is an experimental series of ten aircraft, but these trials concerned new aircraft that had been 'titivated up'.

Goering: I'm glad that the Italians at long last have produced a respectable fighter. And I can only say; let them build them to capacity.

Milch: We also should do something in that sphere. It is indeed a disgrace to our own industry.

Goering: The Italians have never built inferior aircraft and have always been competent in the construction of aircraft and engines. I remember the Fiat and Alfa. They have also held the world speed record. The ability of the Italian aircraft industry has always been of the best. They are unable to mass produce however, and there we must help them. We can consider ourselves lucky, if they have produced a good fighter aircraft. It's one in the eye for our own people anyway.

Petersen: We must attend to this at once. The airframe of the Fiat G 55 can accommodate the DB 603 engine, while the Me 109 is unable to do so any longer. The G 55 with the DB 603 would be an ideal fighter aircraft.

Galland: From our experience the Italians have always forgotten something in their fighter aircraft, either the armour or guns.

Goering: It's to be hoped however that for the purposes of these comparison flights, they've been informed about this, otherwise it's a waste of time.

Petersen: The fighter specialist has flown the aircraft. With the exception of the radio it carried complete equipment, and fuel for one and a half hours, whereas we carried fuel for only one hour. We can't ignore the fact that the Italian aircraft has a performance equal to that of our latest types.

Milch: Then please obtain three Italian aircraft at once, and fly them here, in Rechlin. I would have the DB 603 installed in these aircraft that we have been discussing this morning. It would mean a considerable advance towards the Me 209. I can't imagine the FW 190 with the BMW 801 engine as it is today being sufficient for the next two and half years. [sic!] Especially as we don't know what the English and the Americans are building.

...

Goering: I'm also in favour of the proposal. However I consider it more than likely that the English will effect an improvement with their own types. I would like to ask what is our best means of improving our fighters other than the jet propulsion business?
Milch: The Me 209 and especially its engine. ...

...

Goering: If the Italian aircraft is good, then we won't deny the fact, and we'll mass produce them here. We don't want any false pride.

Milch: Thereby we could advance a year.

Galland: And it would also do our designers good.

Goering: On top of that perhaps we could include the Italian pilots as well, in our complete programme. Anyway I'm very pleased to hear this about the Italians.

davebender · 08-09-2009, 03:56 PM

That won't work for the same reason the Me-209 II won't work. There weren't enough DB603 and Jumo213 engines. If the Me-109 is to be superceded with something else the replacement aircraft must be powered by the DB605 engine.

Waynos · 08-09-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebender

Why didn't the Luftwaffe select the Me-155 as a replacement for the aging Me-109 series starting in 1943? There were plenty of DB605 engines available.

I thought the Me-155/Bv-155 was a high altitiude fighter in a similar fashion to the Westland Welkin, rather than a potential 109 replacement?

Tzaw1 · 08-09-2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waynos

I thought the Me-155/Bv-155 was a high altitiude fighter in a similar fashion to the Westland Welkin, rather than a potential 109 replacement?

This plane was the chameleon. Had first to be deck fighter for the "Graf Zeppelin", later speed fighter-bomber. To the end - the high altitude fighter.

vikingBerserker · 08-09-2009, 05:08 PM

It looks the it really did not fly until late 1944. ARBA makes a 1/48 model of it and it looks pretty nice.

davebender · 08-09-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

I thought the Me-155/Bv-155 was a high altitiude fighter

The Bv-155 had a different fuselage, different wing, different engine and was designed by a shipyard rather then by Messerschmitt. To my way of thinking that is an entirely different aircraft.

I am referring to the CV fighter aircraft designed by Messerschmitt during 1942.

Waynos · 08-09-2009, 05:32 PM

I had thought they were the same project, the work being transferred from Messerschmitt to BV, who then 'made alterations'.

I take the earlier point about it having several different iterations though.

Edit; just had a quick look in my book and I see there was the 'A' model shipboard fighter and 'B' model High alititude fighter, the latter being transferred to BV in August 1943.

Does anyone have an illustration of the Me 155A?

Colin1 · 08-09-2009, 06:12 PM

I thought the Me155 did replace the Bf109 - the T
I understand it was scheduled for the Graf Zeppelin until they canned the project. The German High Command then got a taste for the impact carriers could have and re-opened it.
They didn't reopen the Bf109T program though. I think the T was based on the E and by 1942 and onwards that would have been rather soundly outclassed. Around 60 planes were de-navalised and redeployed as land-based fighters. I think most of them ended up in Norway.

Colin1 · 08-09-2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waynos

Does anyone have an illustration of the Me 155A?

There's this plan-form shot of the A, I'll see what else I can dig up

Waynos · 08-09-2009, 06:17 PM

I have the Me 155B colin, but thanks anyway for taking the trouble. I was wondering if/how the Me 155A was different in detail.

A4K · 08-10-2009, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waynos

I had thought they were the same project, the work being transferred from Messerschmitt to BV, who then 'made alterations'.

From all I've read on them, you're right. The main stumbling block for Messerschmitt was the cooling arrangement of the engine and improvement of the supercharger. They were more or less ordered to concentrate on Me 262 production instead in the end, the design being transferred to Blohm und Voss, who, after subsequent design changes, mananged to smooth out most, if not all, of the problems...

As a side note, ever noticed how there were no official Bf 109I and J? What would have been the 109J was the Bf 109 G-6 airframes (ie, aircraft minus engines) exported to Spain. 'Official' name for these in Germany was Bf 109G-6a (a: 'Ausland'/ foreign), in Spain, after fitting with Merlins, Hispano Ha-112.
My personal theory on the lack of a Bf 109I is that the designation was deliberately skipped to avoid confusion with the Messerschmitt P.1091 project, which was to become the Me 155/ BV 155...

davebender · 08-10-2009, 07:38 AM

Quote:

main stumbling block for Messerschmitt was the cooling arrangement of the engine and improvement of the supercharger.

Do you have any additional details?

The Me-155 used the same engine as the Me-109G. Why didn't they use the same supercharger and cooling system?

Auravir · 08-10-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waynos

Does anyone have an illustration of the Me 155A?

I found a few diagrams of the me 155a and b

Me 155 A

Me 155 A with bomb

Me 155 B-1

Me 155 B-1a

davebender · 08-10-2009, 12:15 PM

I'm surprised they didn't install a bubble canopy. But I suppose that would involve serious fuselage modification. Perhaps the Erla Haube would be good enough.

08-09-2009, 02:35 PM	#1
davebender Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 916	Replace Me-109 with Me-155? Blohm & Voss BV 155 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia During 1942 Messerschmitt designed the Me-155 for use on German aircraft carriers. Supposedly the design was complete by September 1942, just in time to be cancelled along with the German CV program. 1 x 1,475 hp DB605 engine. Wide track landing gear. 3 x MG151/20 cannon. Prop shaft plus 1 in each wing. 403 mph estimated max speed. Messerschmitt Me 209-II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia During 1943 Messerschmitt designed the Me-209 II as a replacement for the Me-109 series. This aircraft was powered by a DB603 engine. The shortage of DB603 engines was probably the major factor why the Me-209 II did not superceed the Me-109. Why didn't the Luftwaffe select the Me-155 as a replacement for the aging Me-109 series starting in 1943? There were plenty of DB605 engines available.

08-09-2009, 03:04 PM	#2
DAVIDICUS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 880	It looks like in February of 1943 they were looking at the Fiat G55 as a replacement for the 109. http://xoomer.virgilio.it/g55/G55his.htm#his3 Transcript from the German official BA-MA archives courtesy of Civettone: AWM 54 423/4/103 Part 63, Report of a Conference held by Reichsmarschall Goering on 22 February 1943 Milch: ... Perhaps Petersen can inform us on this question and also about the comparison flights in Italy. Petersen: ... There will be a further report about comparison flights with all the Italian types ... Against this, the Italian fighter is equal to the German fighter, especially as regards rate of climb. They are also superior in armament. The Fiat 55 aircraft has four cannon and a performance similar to that of the German aircraft, although powered by an engine that is a hundred horsepower less. Peltz: Were they series or experimental aircraft? Petersen: There is an experimental series of ten aircraft, but these trials concerned new aircraft that had been 'titivated up'. Goering: I'm glad that the Italians at long last have produced a respectable fighter. And I can only say; let them build them to capacity. Milch: We also should do something in that sphere. It is indeed a disgrace to our own industry. Goering: The Italians have never built inferior aircraft and have always been competent in the construction of aircraft and engines. I remember the Fiat and Alfa. They have also held the world speed record. The ability of the Italian aircraft industry has always been of the best. They are unable to mass produce however, and there we must help them. We can consider ourselves lucky, if they have produced a good fighter aircraft. It's one in the eye for our own people anyway. Petersen: We must attend to this at once. The airframe of the Fiat G 55 can accommodate the DB 603 engine, while the Me 109 is unable to do so any longer. The G 55 with the DB 603 would be an ideal fighter aircraft. Galland: From our experience the Italians have always forgotten something in their fighter aircraft, either the armour or guns. Goering: It's to be hoped however that for the purposes of these comparison flights, they've been informed about this, otherwise it's a waste of time. Petersen: The fighter specialist has flown the aircraft. With the exception of the radio it carried complete equipment, and fuel for one and a half hours, whereas we carried fuel for only one hour. We can't ignore the fact that the Italian aircraft has a performance equal to that of our latest types. Milch: Then please obtain three Italian aircraft at once, and fly them here, in Rechlin. I would have the DB 603 installed in these aircraft that we have been discussing this morning. It would mean a considerable advance towards the Me 209. I can't imagine the FW 190 with the BMW 801 engine as it is today being sufficient for the next two and half years. [sic!] Especially as we don't know what the English and the Americans are building. ... Goering: I'm also in favour of the proposal. However I consider it more than likely that the English will effect an improvement with their own types. I would like to ask what is our best means of improving our fighters other than the jet propulsion business? Milch: The Me 209 and especially its engine. ... ... Goering: If the Italian aircraft is good, then we won't deny the fact, and we'll mass produce them here. We don't want any false pride. Milch: Thereby we could advance a year. Galland: And it would also do our designers good. Goering: On top of that perhaps we could include the Italian pilots as well, in our complete programme. Anyway I'm very pleased to hear this about the Italians. __________________ . -=DAVIDICUS MAXIMUS=- . Last edited by DAVIDICUS; 08-09-2009 at 03:10 PM.

08-09-2009, 03:56 PM	#3
davebender Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 916	G 55 with the DB 603 That won't work for the same reason the Me-209 II won't work. There weren't enough DB603 and Jumo213 engines. If the Me-109 is to be superceded with something else the replacement aircraft must be powered by the DB605 engine.

08-09-2009, 05:08 PM	#6
vikingBerserker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 6,208	It looks the it really did not fly until late 1944. ARBA makes a 1/48 model of it and it looks pretty nice. __________________ Take arrows in your forehead, but never in your back. - Samurai maxim

08-09-2009, 05:32 PM	#8
Waynos Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,128	I had thought they were the same project, the work being transferred from Messerschmitt to BV, who then 'made alterations'. I take the earlier point about it having several different iterations though. Edit; just had a quick look in my book and I see there was the 'A' model shipboard fighter and 'B' model High alititude fighter, the latter being transferred to BV in August 1943. Does anyone have an illustration of the Me 155A? Last edited by Waynos; 08-09-2009 at 05:35 PM.

08-09-2009, 06:12 PM	#9
Colin1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 2,446	I thought the Me155 did replace the Bf109 - the T I understand it was scheduled for the Graf Zeppelin until they canned the project. The German High Command then got a taste for the impact carriers could have and re-opened it. They didn't reopen the Bf109T program though. I think the T was based on the E and by 1942 and onwards that would have been rather soundly outclassed. Around 60 planes were de-navalised and redeployed as land-based fighters. I think most of them ended up in Norway.

08-09-2009, 06:17 PM	#11
Waynos Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,128	I have the Me 155B colin, but thanks anyway for taking the trouble. I was wondering if/how the Me 155A was different in detail.

08-10-2009, 12:15 PM	#15
davebender Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 916	Diagrams of the me 155a I'm surprised they didn't install a bubble canopy. But I suppose that would involve serious fuselage modification. Perhaps the Erla Haube would be good enough.

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