Rising Sun warbirds

[R Leonard]

Numbers don't lie. By the end of the Battle of Midway, the F4F pilots already had an upper hand against the A6M2 drivers, this without the wide spread adoption of any special defensive tactics such as Jimmy Thach's Beam Defense, later known as the Thach Weave.

Personally knowing many of the fighter pilots involved in the actions at Coral Sea and Midway (for example, when I think of Jimmy Thach, I don't see some picture in a book, I remember a tall thin man sitting in our living room who was kind to children with lots of questions) I take some exception to the characterization of their physical reaction to the concept of combat with the A6M2. So I'll re-ask the question as to the source of that particular tidbit, or expect, at the least some modification of the characterization or, better, a retraction.

Regards,

Rich

[FLYBOYJ]

This was a post by Mr. James Martin from another WW2 site I visit......

Father was attached to 2nd Observation Sqd. at Nichols Field, Dec. 1941
: My Father was stationed at Nichols Field in the Phillippines, as an radio operator, in the 2nd Observation Sqd. Dad was wounded in a bombing attack on Dec. 9th and later evacuated by ship to Australia.
December 1941


Monday 8 December 1941

The first word of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor is received on Luzon, Philip-pine Islands by commercial radio between 0300-0330 hours local. Within 30 minutes radar at Iba Field, Luzon plots a formation of airplanes 75-miles (120-km) offshore, heading for Corregidor Island. P-40's are sent out to intercept but make no contact. Shortly before 0930 hours, after Japanese aircraft are detected over Lingayen Gulf heading toward Manila, B-17's at Clark Field, Luzon are ordered airborne to prevent being caught on the ground. Fighters from Clark and Nichols Fields are sent to intercept the enemy but do not make contact. The Japanese airplanes swing East and bomb military installations at Baguio, Tarlac, Tuguegarao, and airfields at Cabantuan are also attacked. By 1130 hours, the B-17's and fighters sent into the air earlier have landed at Clark and Iba Fields for refueling, and radar has disclosed another flight of Japanese aircraft 70-miles (112-km) West of Lingayen Gulf, headed South. Fighters from Iba Field make a fruitless search over the South China Sea. Fighters from Nichols Field are dispatched to patrol over Bataan and Manila. Around 1145 hours a formation is reported headed South over Lingayen Gulf. Fighters are ordered from Del Carmen Field to cover Clark Field but fail to arrive before the Japanese hit Clark shortly after 1200 hours. B-17's and many fighters at Clark Field are caught on the ground, but a few P-4O's manage to get airborne. 2d Lieutenant Randall B. Keator of the 20th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor), 24th Pursuit Group (Interceptor), shoots down the first Japanese aircraft over the Philippines. The P-40's earlier sent on patrol of the South China Sea return to Iba Field with fuel running low at the beginning of a Japanese attack on that airfield. The P-40's fail to prevent bombing but manage to prevent low-level strafing of the sort which proved so destructive at Clark Field. At the end of the day's action it is apparent that the Japanese have won a major victory. The effective striking power of Far East Air Force has been destroyed, the fighter strength has been seriously reduced, most B-17 maintenance facilities have been demolished, and about 90 men have been killed.


Tuesday 9 December 1941

Shortly after 0300 hours, Japanese aircraft attack Nichols Field. This attack, added to the previous day's raids on Clark and Iba Fields, leaves the Far East Air Force strength reduced by half. Only 17 of 35 B-17's remain in commission; about 55 P-40's, 3 P-35's, and close to 30 other aircraft (B-10's, B-18's, and observation airplanes) have been lost in aerial combat or destroyed on the ground. During the morning and afternoon, B-17's from Mindanao Island fly reconnaissance missions and land on Clark and San Marcelino Fields on Luzon. Several more B-17's are flown from Mindanao Island to these Luzon bases for resistance against a possible invasion attempt. The 3d Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor), 24th Pursuit Group (Interceptor), transfers from Iba Airfield to Nichols Field, Luzon with P-40's. The 17th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor), 24th Pursuit Group (Interceptor), based at Nichols Field begins operating from Clark Field, Luzon with P-40's.

Real whopping numbers of P-40s?!? Through out early 1942 I doubt there were more than 100 P-40 available at any given time in the South Pacific.

[FLYBOYJ]

Here's some more info about P-40s in the PTO early in the war....

02/27/42

Fifth AF

Battle of Java Sea. Allied air and naval units try to stop convoy of some 80 ships approaching Java from NE. All available B-17's, A-24's, P-40's and LB-30's are put into the air but achieve only insignificant results. An Allied naval force, 5 cruisers and 11 destroyers, under Adm Doorman, Royal Netherlands Navy, meets the enemy near Surabaya and is decisively defeated, losing 5 ships. Most of Fifth AF ground echelon in Java is evacuated by sea. The Sea Witch delivers 27 crated P-40's to Tjilatjap, Java, but these will be destroyed to prevent their falling into Japanese hands. 32 P-40's aboard the USS Langley, which sailed from Australia for India on 23 Feb, are lost when the Langley is sunk by aircraft 100 mi S of Tjilatjap. The pilots are rescued by other vessels in the convoy, but the enemy sinks these ships with the exception of a destroyer, which delivers 2 of the pilots to Perth.

03/02/42

Fifth AF

5 B-17's and 3 LB-30's (the last airplane taking off just before midnight) evacuate the last 260 men from Jogjakarta, the last A/F on Java in Allied hands. Ground forces are within 20 mi at this time. Bataan-based P-40's attack shipping in Subic Bay. The pilots claim considerable damage to the ships, but 4 of the few P-40's remaining on Bataan are lost.

03/12/42

Tenth AF

10 P-40's arrive in Karachi by ship from Australia

https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mi...hron/41dec.htm

[syscom3]

That was a lot of aircraft for the time. Compare it to the realities of Dec 1941, not a couple of years later when that many planes a day were manufactured.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by syscom3

That was a lot of aircraft for the time. Compare it to the realities of Dec 1941, not a couple of years later when that many planes a day were manufactured.

Sure they were, but you're making it sound like the Zero shot down hundreds of P-40s during this period and hundreds more fled to Australia

But read your own words..

Originally Posted by syscom3

Are you saying that in the first 6 months of the war, all of those P40's sent to the PI, to Java, to New Guinie, just sort of all dissapeared on their own? They never saw battle, they just took off one day, never to return? And of course the Japanese couldnt shoot them down cause our planes were indestuctable, and the pilots were better! And of course the people on the ground were imagining things when they saw allied planes flying straight down into the ground. Engine failures no doubt.

Hmmmm. Maybe some UFO got in their way?

Lots of allied planes (P40 included) went up to fight the Japanese, decided to dogfight the Zero/Zeke/Oscar and plenty ended up shot down. Takes awhile for lessons of aerial combat to sink into a doctrine. Once those lessons were learned then loss rates went down in a hurry.

Bottom line, there weren't "lots" or "numerous" aircraft in the area at the start of the war and if the Japanese destroyed 100 aircraft (P-40s, P-39s, P-35s and P-36s) in air-to-air combat during this period, I would be surprised. What is being learned here is the losses we are made to think occurred during this period were not as numerous as one would think. Look at the numbers for the Battle of Coral Sea and Midway. Until Rich posted these numbers I would assume that we lost hundreds of F4Fs. The same hold true for the P-40 and even the P-39.....

Conclusion: overall AAF totals in the Pacific are 3960 air kills and 925 air losses. Break them down by aircraft and find out how many were lost to Zeros it's going to show, based on it's combat record, the Zero was highly over-rated!!!!

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

......
Sure they were, but you're making it sound like the Zero shot down hundreds of P-40s during this period and hundreds more fled to Australia

Sorry if you misunderstood me. I was referring more to the kill ratio of the first 6 months of the war. I will even admit that the zero was at its apex beginning in May/June, and declined steadily.

I found this interesting story at the Pacific Wrecks webpage. If you read down to "15", theres an interesting account described by both pilots on how a wildcat was shotdown. The Zero pilot was Sakai, the Wildcat pilot was Southerland.

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/history...ku.html#_ftn13

[evangilder]

Good info there Joe! If I didn't know better, I would think you have been hanging around with Rich.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Sorry if you misunderstood me. I was referring more to the kill ratio of the first 6 months of the war. I will even admit that the zero was at its apex beginning in May/June, and declined steadily.

No problem! - but if one was would say the Zero kill ratio was 2 to 1 during this period, I think that might be considered high....

You had several pilots in the theater at the time who scored kills in P-39s and P-40s and as a whole operated very effectively against Japanese forces until the P-38 entered the theater in late 42. Jay Robbins, Thomas Lynch, and Danny Roberts were all top P-38 fighter pilots but all would do well when they first arrived in the area flying P-39s (Lynch got 2 Zeros in May 42' flying the P-400). As a matter of fact the 39th Pursit Group operating out of New Guinea did extremely well with the P-39 considering it's limitations.

Again, there were folks knocking down Zeros with 39s, 40s and 400s. They held the line until the P-38 arrived and their losses weren't reflective of what you would think the Zero could inflict....

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by evangilder

Good info there Joe! If I didn't know better, I would think you have been hanging around with Rich.

Thanks Eric!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Wow good info. I think history speaks for itself on how good the Zero really was.

[syscom3]

Heres what the Chino "Raiden" looks like. It would be great if they could ever get it airworthy again.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Nice looking plane though.

[Parmigiano]

I have found in a book the US report of a captured Zero (model 21) in comparison with the US fighters of the time (P39, P40, P38F, Wildcat and one of the first Corsairs)
According to the report, this Zero (crashed and rebuilt with a non original prop, so likely not in her best shape) is superior or holding well in comparison to the US planes, except with the Corsair.

If allowed by the policy of the site, I can scan the pages and post some .JPG (sorry, no time to manually copy the text...)
let me know, I don't want to violate some law...

[FLYBOYJ]

I know of the same report. A propeller had to fabricated because the Zero's propeller (and engine) rotates opposite when compared to US fighters. When they did those test, some of the simulated combat was done under 300 MPH.....

Also compared was equipment and construction methods. Except for the lack or armor and self-sealing tanks the inital captured Zeros were designed and built as well or better when compared to their western counterparts...

[syscom3]

one other interesting fact about the design of the Zero........ the IJN wanted the design of the airframe to allow for the engine to be changed quickly. I think it took less than 30 minutes for a complete engine change as compared to hours with the F4F.