Rising Sun warbirds

plan_D · 08-11-2005, 10:14 AM

You call that a "meat-grinder" syscom? Look at the losses, it's nothing. 123 to enemy aircraft, that's nothing! How can the Zero have any claim to sweep everything from the skies when the whole IJN only achieved 123 air kills against it's main opponent the USN.

evangilder · 08-11-2005, 10:47 AM

Were all those enemy aircraft losses only attributed to the Zero?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 08-11-2005, 12:06 PM

Probably not.

evangilder · 08-11-2005, 01:03 PM

That's what I was thinking, so that makes the Zero even less impressive.

plan_D · 08-11-2005, 07:04 PM

Well that's changed my view of the IJN in the first six months completely. Having finished "Burma-The Forgotten War" for the second time, I'm still impressed with the complete ignorance of the Western world about Japan and it's military ability or lack of.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 08-12-2005, 08:11 AM

That is what pretty much kept Japan in the war. They were not understood by the allies even before the war started. If you look though at the way the fighting went, sure the Japanese were fearless soldiers and the jungle fighting lasted months and years, but overall they were not the deady military that they were thought to be at first.

plan_D · 08-12-2005, 10:16 AM

The only reason Burma lasted so long was because it was at the bottom of the supply and manpower priorities. Plus the fact they basically had to build the country as they advanced.

I finished that book, now I'm reading Monte Cassino by Matthew Parker. I must have some infatuation with conflicts that revolve around engineers. The unsung heroes of any war!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 08-13-2005, 07:05 AM

That I will agree with you. Engineers are a great reason why most battles are won.

Nonskimmer · 08-13-2005, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

...engineers. The unsung heroes of any war!

Too true. They're invaluable.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 08-13-2005, 09:11 AM

Parmigiano · 08-13-2005, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Leonard

USN aircraft lost in combat from 7 December 1941 through 6 June 1942:

Carrier aircraft:
To enemy aircraft: 68
To enemy AA fire: 28

Land-based aircraft:
To enemy aircraft: 33
To enemy AA fire: 5

and

Land-based aircraft (USMC):
To enemy aircraft: 22
To enemy AA fire: 4

Rich

There is something strange with numbers!
Rich reported this statistics of negligible losses, but when we look at some production numbers, FOR INSTANCE at the main US naval fighter of the time (F4F Wildcat, delivered starting Nov. 1941) we see a production of about 7900 aircraft, of wich at least 6600 were built before Grumman gave production to GM in mid 1942.
Given that only a few were lost in action, and even considering that a few hundreds went to other Air Forces, where all the remaining thousands went? Were they all scrapped ?

syscom3 · 08-13-2005, 11:35 AM

The stats on USN aircraft lost were for the first 6 months of the war, through the battle of Midway. These stats dont show what was about to happen in the Guadalcanal campaign.

There were two main battles fought in the first 6 months. Coral Sea and Midway. At that time of the war, carrier battles were small in terms of aircraft participating, cause ony a few carriers were in use.

FLYBOYJ · 08-13-2005, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parmigiano

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Leonard

USN aircraft lost in combat from 7 December 1941 through 6 June 1942:

Carrier aircraft:
To enemy aircraft: 68
To enemy AA fire: 28

Land-based aircraft:
To enemy aircraft: 33
To enemy AA fire: 5

and

Land-based aircraft (USMC):
To enemy aircraft: 22
To enemy AA fire: 4

Rich

There is something strange with numbers!
Rich reported this statistics of negligible losses, but when we look at some production numbers, FOR INSTANCE at the main US naval fighter of the time (F4F Wildcat, delivered starting Nov. 1941) we see a production of about 7900 aircraft, of wich at least 6600 were built before Grumman gave production to GM in mid 1942.
Given that only a few were lost in action, and even considering that a few hundreds went to other Air Forces, where all the remaining thousands went? Were they all scrapped ?

YES THEY WERE - after WW2 someting like 120,000 aircraft were scrapped here in the US. Check the numbers of operational US aircraft after the war, many were used by training squadrons into the late 1940s.

FLYBOYJ · 08-13-2005, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

The stats on USN aircraft lost were for the first 6 months of the war, through the battle of Midway. These stats dont show what was about to happen in the Guadalcanal campaign.

There were two main battles fought in the first 6 months. Coral Sea and Midway. At that time of the war, carrier battles were small in terms of aircraft participating, cause ony a few carriers were in use.

So let's include Guadalcanal, there the F4F had at least a 3 to 1 kill ratio over the Zero. Many of the aircraft lost at Guadalcanal were lost on the ground. The remaining F4s has to keep up a high Kill ratio or Guadalcanal would of fallen, and as we know it didn't......

Bottom line the major fighter of Guadalcanal was the F4F and still dominated the Zero....

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 08-13-2005, 07:32 PM

I think we have proven that.