Rising Sun warbirds

FLYBOYJ · 08-13-2005, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I think we have proven that.

Yep - the mystical Zero was a Zero!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 08-13-2005, 08:54 PM

Well most people will see that.

GregP · 08-13-2005, 11:57 PM

Hey! The Fiesler Storch was a stealth fighter! If painted to resemble a haystack, the rest of the fighters couldn't see it as they flew by at high speed, so it was almost invisible.

Other fighters could easily be shot down by an alert Storch pilot, who only had to make the haystack seem to rise by climbing. Startled opposition pilots were rendered speechless and probably flew into the ground.

The power-to-weight ratio was superior to a Morris Minor.

R Leonard · 08-14-2005, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Rich reported this statistics of negligible losses, but when we look at some production numbers, FOR INSTANCE at the main US naval fighter of the time (F4F Wildcat, delivered starting Nov. 1941) we see a production of about 7900 aircraft, of wich at least 6600 were built before Grumman gave production to GM in mid 1942.

Losses through 6 June 1942 were ALL USN combat losses, not just F4F.

I think you need to check your F4F numbers; the Grumman F4F-3, F4F-3A, and F4F-4 production totaled 1550; 285, 95, and 1170 (including 1 XF4F-4), respectively. Most F4Fs were produced before September 1942, though production continued into December. There were also 21 F4F-7’s, 2 XF4F-8, and one each XF4F-2, XF4F-5 and XF4F-6. Also, the first USN squadron to receive the F4F was VF-4 in November 1940.

There were at least 25 USN or USMC squadrons that saw combat with the F4F-3, F4F-3A, or F4F-4. Strengths of these squadrons varied from a low of about 18 F4F-3 or 3As at the beginning of the war to 36 F4F-4s by the fall of 1942 and into the summer of 1943. And there were, what, some 485 or more F4F-3, -3A, and -4 that went to the FAA (including 20 that were lost when their transport was torpedoed).

Anyway, F4F production was far below your noted 6660. On the otherhand, FM-1 and FM-2 production ran to 5837, 1060 and 4777 respectively.

Regards,

Rich

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 08-14-2005, 09:12 AM

Well either way, the numbers speak for themselves and I think it proves what was better, Zero or the Wildcats, Hellcats, etc.

Chocks away! · 08-14-2005, 11:04 AM

Are we all forgetting that some Japanese aces achieved maybe up to a fundred kills in Zeros? Or that a certain ace flying a lightning was shot down by a Zero when slowing down to dogfight? Or that many renowned aces perished thus? I don't recall the name of said ace at the moment but i'll research a bit

Chocks away! · 08-14-2005, 11:07 AM

Furthermore i'd say the late war A6M5 was a rather potent aircraft, not as fragile as the well known A6M2 and could threaten any allied plane if flown well.

Parmigiano · 08-14-2005, 12:13 PM

Rich,

yes, I understood that your figures referenced all losses, I used the example of the F4F to highlight the big gap between the delivered aircrafts and the related losses.
If you include all the US aircraft in line in 1941-42 (dauntless, buffalos, P40 etc.) the gap between lost in war and scrapped is even bigger.

About production figures, I just googled the net and all numbers I found agreed on a production of about 7900, here is some source

http://www.warbirdalley.com/f4f.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/f4f.htm
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevo.../F4FWILDC.html

And yes, 1941 was a typing mistake!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 08-14-2005, 05:20 PM

Well lets see the highest Japanese Army Ace was W/O Hiromichi Shinohara with 58 victories, and the highest Japanese Navy ace was Hiroyoshi Nishizawa with 87 kills. That is not quite a 100 my friend.

wmaxt · 08-14-2005, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Well lets see the highest Japanese Army Ace was W/O Hiromichi Shinohara with 58 victories, and the highest Japanese Navy ace was Hiroyoshi Nishizawa with 87 kills. That is not quite a 100 my friend.

The list I have quotes Nishizawa at 103 as Japans leading ace. Is there some contention against some of his kills?

wmaxt

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 08-14-2005, 05:51 PM

I dont know I have never seen it over 87. From what I can tell though the Japanese did not have a real system of confirming kills though as other countries did, so that could explain some of it.

R Leonard · 08-14-2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

About production figures, I just googled the net and all numbers I found agreed on a production of about 7900, here is some source

In my experience the best place to look for production numbers for USN aircraft is the USN itself rather than what someone else, even myself, might interpret.

The best way to do that is to use the bureau numbers assigned at time of production and then just work the math. Try

http://www.history.navy.mil/download/history/app09.pdf

Further, it would appear that your sources are lumping the F4F series in with the entire FM series. The USN doesn’t figure it that way. In its statistical reporting the USN considers the FM-2 to be a separate type and it’s wartime results are tabulated separately. So, if you want to lump the FM-1 in with the F4Fs, okay, that gives you a total of 2636 F4F types, but there’s still a separate 4777 FM-2s.

Not counting the squadrons that did their duty and spent the war on tedious, fruitless searches on patrols with no results, there were 37 USN squadrons, mostly of the VC-x variety, operating for the most part from CVEs, that shot down at least one enemy aircraft in the course of a deployment, ranging from VC-27 with 59.5/1/6 credits down to VC-11, VC-63, VC-66, and VC-86 all with 1/0/0 credits.

The FM-2 was faster and more maneuverable than its little brother, the F4F and racked up a fairly impressive performance. Combined, the squadrons engaged in combat were credited with a total of 428/37/33.5 versus total FM-2 losses of 13 to enemy aircraft and 62 to enemy AA fire. Credits break down thusly:

A6M Series - 102/5/8
D3A - 93.5/5/1
Ki-43 - 43.5/7/6
Ki-61 - 36/2/3
Ki-21 - 21/2/2
P1Y1 - 21/0/6
Ki-48 - 21/4/1
Ki-44 - 20/3/1
B6N1-2 - 14/0/1
J1N - 10/5/1
E13A - 9/0/0
B5N - 8/1/1.5
D4Y Series - 8/0/0
G4M - 7/0/1
Ki-45 - 5/3/1
Ki-46 - 2/0/0
G3M - 1/0/0
J2M - 1/0/0
Ki-57 - 1/0/0
Ki-51 - 1/0/0
Ki-27 - 1/0/0
U/I 2/E VT - 2/0/0

The last FM-2 to score was on 5 August 1945 when Lieut Eugene R Beckwith, of VC-97 off USS Makassar Strait (CVE-91), scored a P1Y1 over the East China Sea while performing CAP duties.

Regards,

Rich

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 08-14-2005, 06:13 PM

Good info there.

Parmigiano · 08-14-2005, 07:24 PM

Thank you Rich

Well, I have no background on the Pacific theatre, but looking at the numbers you bring, and considering that the other main fighters (F6F and F4U) were far superior to the wildcat the only possible comment is that the air battle was mere target practice!
Either the reported stats are completely wrong or the Japanese aviation was totally non existent as an Air Force.

FLYBOYJ · 08-14-2005, 07:58 PM

There's no denying that the Japanese did score many victories, but I think a lot of the mysticism of the Zero, IJAAF and IJN lies with the allies (mainly the US) making their opposition look tougher than they actually were. When you hear stories about the mystical Zero and really do the research and math like Rich did (thanks Rich, great job!), I think it's alleged superiority was a product of exaggeration and folklore. Comments anyone?!?