Robert S. Johnson, 56th Fighter Group.

[DAVIDICUS]

I believe the holes in the propeller were from 7.92mm rounds.

On another note, let's keep in mind the following. This isn't a situation where a pilot was in a situation where he was the only witness and has made a claim that sounds incredible. For instance, this isn't a situation where a pilot claims that he hit the speed of sound in a dive.

Here, Johnson's plane made it back. His claim of the number of 20mm cannon round hits was readily observable and verifiable by many others. I have never heard anything regarding an assault on his claim by anyone who was a witness, and thus in a position to do so, or anyone who spoke to a witness.

How could such a claim persist without evidence to the contrary
by any of the many witnesses if it was indeed just a wild fantasy completely out of the bounds of reality? Perhaps anything these many people said that contradicted Johnson's claim was never recorded in print. Perhaps no one who ever spoke to an observing witness whose account contradicted Johnson's version ever had their story recorded in print. Perhaps those who observed his aircraft were part of a large conspiracy or mass hallucination.

Perhaps Johnson's story is true.

[DJ_Dalton]

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

I believe the holes in the propeller were from 7.92mm rounds.

On another note, let's keep in mind the following. This isn't a situation where a pilot was in a situation where he was the only witness and has made a claim that sounds incredible. For instance, this isn't a situation where a pilot claims that he hit the speed of sound in a dive.

Here, Johnson's plane made it back. His claim of the number of 20mm cannon round hits was readily observable and verifiable by many others. I have never heard anything regarding an assault on his claim by anyone who was a witness, and thus in a position to do so, or anyone who spoke to a witness.

How could such a claim persist without evidence to the contrary
by any of the many witnesses if it was indeed just a wild fantasy completely out of the bounds of reality? Perhaps anything these many people said that contradicted Johnson's claim was never recorded in print. Perhaps no one who ever spoke to an observing witness whose account contradicted Johnson's version ever had their story recorded in print. Perhaps those who observed his aircraft were part of a large conspiracy or mass hallucination.

Perhaps Johnson's story is true.

You only need look at those pictures above to realize theres something rotten in Denmark. Not only do the pictures fail to depict 21 20 mm shell hits, they fail miserably to depict 200 7.92 round hits. The poster tried to pawn off 5 20 mm PROPELLOR hits and 9 unobservable wing hits for an unobservable total of 14 of the 21 ....please. Wherever a 20 strikes the propellor it shears it off at that location.

I think it far more likely that the plane was hit by a total of 21 rounds. TOTAL. Why would the U.S. fabricate or grow the story bigger than it was? In wartime, they are always concerned with Morale and Johnson a leading ace was undoubtedly missing and concern arose. What better way to assauge that concern than proclaim "Here he is and his plane brought him home despite being shot to ****". Morale. Those pictures and DT's breakdown of the damage defy credibility. I guess they'd have you believe 180 machine gun hits are in the wings despite the fact the FW190 has them housed in the fuselage. So something is wrong. The question is why? You'll find siimilar in almost all the accounts of the victors. The facts don't jive with the rhetoric.

Lies and the Lying Liars who tell them.

[DAVIDICUS]

DJ_Dalton said: "Why would the U.S. fabricate or grow the story bigger than it was? In wartime, they are always concerned with Morale and Johnson a leading ace was undoubtedly missing and concern arose. What better way to assauge that concern than proclaim "Here he is and his plane brought him home despite being shot to s**t". Morale."

So I assume that you are going with large conspiracy by the government. Have you ever noticed those black helicopters that follow you around?

You are saying that he was "undoubtedly missing" and that in order to "assuage" concern over this "leading ace's" absence, they "produced" some P-47, apparently damaged it themselves and then said, "Here is his plane that brought him back" even though he was still missing? Huh? Wouldn't his return "assuage" any concern over his being "undoubtedly missing" irrespective of the condition of his plane upon return?

Why stop there. Let's continue with your government conspiracy reasoning per your logic. When Robert Johnson did come back, it wasn't Robert Johnson at all. Obviously the U.S. government, being interested in "assuaging" concern over a missing leading ace produced another pilot and proclaimed, "Here he is" and no one who knew differently ever said anything just like how no one who knew differently ever said anything about his plane not having taken 21 hits from a 20mm.

It's fair to say that neither of us is going to change the other's mind so we'll just have to agree to disagree. (If you are the real DJ_Dalton and not part of a neo-Nazi conspiracy to disparage Robert S. Johnson)

[DJ_Dalton]

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

It's fair tyo say that neither of us is going to change the other's mind so we'll just have to agree to disagree. (If you are the real DJ_Dalton and not part of a neo-Nazi conspiracy to disparage Robert S. Johnson after his death when he can't defend himself.)

I'll rest my case on the photos shown and the photos not shown. I don't know what Robert Johnson said for sure or what he was stated to have said, but this P-47 is in a lot better shape than scores of others I've seen photos of. It may be the story broke well after the war.

Case Dismissed.

[Udet]

Davidicus:

With all due respect I do not think the very particular topic on this thread is a case of learning to disagree.

It is rather a case where the evidence flatly fails to prove what has been told by the allied boys.

The parts of the P-47 shown on the photos here not only show only two or three 2 cm shell hits at the most, they also fail to show the two hundred 7.92 mm hits.

You might dislike Dalton here, but a good point was made when saying that if unbeliavable damage had been endured in parts other than the ones posted here, we will be seeing them, but there are none.

Guys I praise the P-47. It is my favorite USAAF fighter (by far). Being repetitive is somewhat necessary in on-line forums: it was fast, excellent roller and diver, and (again) it could take a good deal of punishment.

Still, no matter how sound and sturdy it was: there is not enough surface on the P-47 to take twenty one 2cm shells, keep flying and getting back in time to base for dinner.

[DAVIDICUS]

Udet, DJ_Dalton said, "That P-47 was hit by 2 maybe 3 high explosive shell." He also said, "I think it far more likely that the plane was hit by a total of 21 rounds. TOTAL." (by total, he meant both 7.92mm and 20mm rounds)

Obviously, you agree with this assertion. This thread contains the recorded accounts of Johnson as well as pictures. I think you would agree with me that making it back to base with "2 maybe 3" 20mm hits along with 18 or 19 7.92mm hits would have been an unremarkable event at best. Moreover, his aircraft would not have been scrapped as a result which is what happened.

I don't know what more could be said. We just disagree. For example your assertion that, "German interceptos in many cases used 1/10 of the rounds Johnson´s P-47 allegedly took that day to shoot down a four engined heavy bomber such as the B-17 and B-24, which of course are heavier and far harder to destroy." I disagree.

On another note and for the record, I don't at all "dislike" DJ_Dalton or anyone else who disagrees with me for that matter.

[evangilder]

DJ, while I question the number of his as well, let's keep in mind that when the incident occurred, Johnson was not yet an ace! So a missing ace story would not be correct. However, it depends on when the story broke. Was it just after it happened, later or even post-war? I have heard the story in multiple versions, some say 21 20mm hits, while some say 21 holes from 20mm hits. The quote was There are twenty-one gaping holes and jagged tears in the metal from exploding 20mm cannon shells. Is the claim 21 shells or 21 holes from shells? There is a big difference.

Either way, I do believe that there is some embellishment to this story, and none of us can see the airplane today to look.

[DJ_Dalton1]

Originally Posted by evangilder

DJ, while I question the number of his as well, let's keep in mind that when the incident occurred, Johnson was not yet an ace! So a missing ace story would not be correct. However, it depends on when the story broke. Was it just after it happened, later or even post-war? I have heard the story in multiple versions, some say 21 20mm hits, while some say 21 holes from 20mm hits. The quote was There are twenty-one gaping holes and jagged tears in the metal from exploding 20mm cannon shells. Is the claim 21 shells or 21 holes from shells? There is a big difference.

Either way, I do believe that there is some embellishment to this story, and none of us can see the airplane today to look.

I tried to find an article about this story I read. It stated that every square foot of the plane was riddled with bullets. Thats clearly not the case. You are correct though. I don't think Johnson had a single kill at the time of the incident. Good point, my bad. My guess now is that the story broke years after the event and time and good sales technique embellished it more than the government. Not that embellishment is beyond the Pentagon.

[DAVIDICUS]

Actually the quote is, "Every square foot, it seems is covered with holes." That's different from your claim that the statement said, "[E]very square foot of the plane was riddled with bullets."

By analogy, the former is like a pilot saying, "The flak was so bad, it seemed like you could walk on it" and you then proclaiming that he said, "The flak was so bad, you could walk on it."

Do you see the difference? The former in both the actual quote and the analogy that follows is indeed an embellishment. When you see the words "seems" and/or "like", that should tip you off that it's an embellishment.

I am sticking to my belief in the story. Neener Neener.

Originally Posted by Udet

Sorry guys it is not my intention to botch the party, but twenty one 2cm hits sounds a bit like a taste of hollywood there.

While a full load of 7.92mm bullets might certainly not be enough to bring down a sturdy P-47, the alleged amount of 2cm shells absorbed by this gentleman´s Thunderbolt is far beyond the realms of reality.

The photos posted here, even while showing important damage, are clearly not the product of taking 21 of the 2 cm shells. I have seen Bf 109s with that sort of damage that made it back to base.

Some of the hits shown on the photos certainly come from 2cm shells but never to be 21, and he was lucky they did not hit the engine: a sole well placed 2cm shell on the engine of even the P-47 is a sure kill.

The Fw190As and the P-47s are surely the sturdiest and greatest damage absorbers of the war. Both had radial engines, while P-51, Bf109, Spitfires and Lightnings had liquid cooled engines and could not take very great damage.

German interceptos in many cases used 1/10 of the rounds Johnson´s P-47 allegedly took that day to shoot down a four engined heavy bomber such as the B-17 and B-24, which of course are heavier and far harder to destroy.

The P-47 if indeed capable of taking important damage did not demand, being generous, even 1/4 of the rounds you are saying he took that particular day.

That's the reported number of confirmable 20mm strikes Udet, along with "over 100" 7.9 mm hits. There was also a P-40 that made it home with over twenty 20mm hits in the MTO. I admit this was not typical, but there are many cases where P-47's and Corsairs are known to have survived well over a dozen 20mm hits and managed to carry their pilots significant distances from enemy to friendly territory - some managed to land, others were crash landed or bailed from.

=S=

Lunatic

[DAVIDICUS]

RG_Lunatic: "There was also a P-40 that made it home with over twenty 20mm hits in the MTO. I admit this was not typical, but there are many cases where P-47's and Corsairs are known to have survived well over a dozen 20mm hits ..."

It sounds like you are of the opinion that a P-47 could in fact sustain such an onslaught of 20mm cannon fire. (I realize that such an opinion doesn't go to the veracity of Johnson's plane as indicated by the photos.)

Do you have any specific information on that P-40 or any other aircraft that took devastating hits and kept flying?

It's a fascinating subject and I will post a new topic for it.

I've seen photos of Johnson's P-47, and I could clearly see at least a dozen 20mm hits, and scores of 7.9mm hits, espeically on the wings.

Before you go saying that the P-47 could not take 21 x 20mm hits, look at the damage this P-47 took from Japanese AA fire (much more potent than an MG151) and still flew home!

http://368thfightergroup.com/rife.html

Also, remember that typically only 2 in 5 of the 20mm rounds were HE, only one of those was maybe a "mine" round, and 1 in 4 HE rounds were duds. So of 21 20mm hits, typically about 4 would have been HE, and only 3 would have detonated.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

RG_Lunatic: "There was also a P-40 that made it home with over twenty 20mm hits in the MTO. I admit this was not typical, but there are many cases where P-47's and Corsairs are known to have survived well over a dozen 20mm hits ..."

It sounds like you are of the opinion that a P-47 could in fact sustain such an onslaught of 20mm cannon fire. (I realize that such an opinion doesn't go to the veracity of Johnson's plane as indicated by the photos.)

Do you have any specific information on that P-40 or any other aircraft that took devastating hits and kept flying?

It's a fascinating subject and will post a new topic for it.

I'll try to find the accounts. However, please don't mistake me, such occurances were the exception, not the rule. A lot of luck would be involved. But again, remember typically 5 types of cannon ammo were loaded, with only 2 being HE, only one of which might be a mine round, and 1 in 4 fused rounds were duds. In both Johnson's case and that of the P-40, it is entirely possible that no HE rounds were loaded, or that the batch of HE rounds had a higher than normal proprotion of duds or weak loads - again that's "luck".

In general, I'd say that the P-47 could probably sustain 20 x 20mm hits only if they mostly struck the wings, tail, and the fuselage behind the canopy. The wings of the P-47 are triple redundant in most respects, and could take a lot of hits. The fuselage rear of the cockpit does not have a lot of critical components and the armor plate will stop most MG151/20 cannon rounds from penetrating to more critical systems.

In the description of Johnson's ordeal, the FW sat on his dead six and shot him up. From that position, it would be very likely that the hits would indeed be mostly to the wings, rear fuselage, and tail.

As for the photos... we really don't have a good set of photos. We cannot see any of the damage that was probably inflicted on the wings, the most likely place for hits. I've been looking but have not found any more photos.

=S=

Lunatic

[DAVIDICUS]

Holy sh*t!

http://368thfightergroup.com/rife.html

That's beyond impressive RG. Without photos, such a description of damage would be clearly out of any reasonable bounds of reality and thus unbelievable.


The story indicates that the AA fire damage was inflicted by the Germans.

I see you are correct, it was the Germans. I didn't read the story, the site I located it through indicated the photo was from the PTO.

Still, you see my point I hope. The P-47 could take tremendous damage, especially to the wings, and keep on flying. In fact, the only parts of the plane that are particularly vulnerable are the cockpit, which is well shielded from the front and rear by armor and the engine, and the fuel system, including the turbo-charger which runs along the belly of the plane from the engine back to just behind the pilot.

=S=

Lunatic