Roll Back 1 year

[tomo pauk]

I'll go by countries, only for a year-early on:

-US: P-38

-UK: Mosquito

-France: VG-33

-USSR: Yak-1

-Germany: Me-262

-Japan: Ki-84

-Italy: G.55

[Catch22]

US: F4U, just a more capable aircraft overall than the Hellcat.

UK: Mosquito

USSR: La-5

Germany: Me-262

Japan: Ki-84

Italy: G.55

[gjs238]

P-51

My choice is the P-51.
I think the greatest benefit for the Allies would be to wave this magic wand in the critical early years when the P-39, P-40, Hurricane and Spitfire bore the brunt of the fighting.
Even with the Allison engine, the ramifications of fielding the P-51 in May 1941 would have been gynormic.
This also means P-51 development would have been a year ahead as well, i.e., Merlin engine.

The only other plane fielded early enough that could have affected the critical early years is the P-38.
But considering how long development plodded on, how much more expensive it cost, more maintenance intensive, etc, I think the P-51 deserves the pick.

Combat debut dates from Wikipedia:
- P-40 June 1941
- P-39 October 1941
- P-51 May 1942
- P-38 4 April 1942/September 1942 for photoreconnaissance and 29 May 1942 in the Aleutians
- F4U February 14, 1943
- P-47 March 10, 1943
- F6F September 1, 1943

[tomo pauk]

Originally Posted by gjs238

P-51
...
Even with the Allison engine, the ramifications of fielding the P-51 in May 1941 would have been gynormic.
...

Will you please explain what the words 'ramifications' and 'gynormic' mean, to a non-original speaker? Thanks.

[Colin1]

Originally Posted by tomo pauk

Will you please explain what the words 'ramifications' and 'gynormic' mean...

Ramifications - consequences, result of

gynormic - don't know but good word! I don't think you'll find it in an English dictionary but something along the lines of: out of this world, considerable impact, gewaltig, ungerheuerlich, riesig

[Catch22]

Or very large!

[tomo pauk]

Originally Posted by Colin1

Ramifications - consequences, result of

gynormic - don't know but good word! I don't think you'll find it in an English dictionary but something along the lines of: out of this world, considerable impact, gewaltig, ungerheuerlich, riesig

Ja, ja, gewaltig ist die wort!

[plan_D]

Can I say the Spitfire Mk.IX, so the Fw 190 doesn't give the RAF so much of a shock.

[tango35]

For the night i would like to see the He 219 one year earlier in operational use - would be a shock for the RAF Bomber Command.
And for the day the Fw 190 D with well experinced pilots to make it equal.

[syscom3]

I like the P38. Imagine the "J" models being available and in production in 1941.

Escorted bombers in the ETO in 1942. P38's in the PI in 1941.

[mlsco]

Originally Posted by syscom3

I like the P38. Imagine the "J" models being available and in production in 1941.

Escorted bombers in the ETO in 1942. P38's in the PI in 1941.

Interesting question, but it partly depends on the numbers, too. If we move those up, I agree the Hellcat would seem a strong contender. In addition to speed and range over the Wildcat, huge numbers were made over a short period of time. While the F4U was a somewhat higher performing plane, it still took quite a time to figure out how to fly it from carriers: it arrived some months after the Hellcat on ships.

If the F6F could have been gotten in those numbers to Guadalcanal and onto lots of carriers during the fall of 1942, the whole Solomons campaign (when the war there was still at a tipping point) might have proceeded in a different time frame, since air superiority for the US was pretty tenuous during much of it.

To me, this isn't just an "either / or" answer. The later part of the Pacific war (early to mid-1944 on), you could argue, started to be more limited by the ability to take islands than by air superiority alone. Hellcats looked good not just because they were better rounded planes than Zeros, but also because there were more ships to carry more planes. Suicide attacks apart, control of the air was clear after the Marianas Turkey Shoot and relatively few vessels ultimately were lost to kamikazes.

Alternately, an additional year of escorted daylight bombing in Europe (P-38, P-51, ANYTHING) would have meant thousands of lives, too. The numbers of casualties in both theaters that could have changed is very sobering.

[syscom3]

I dont think we can include the Hellcat in this scenario, since the design was dictated by the results of actual combat with the Zero.

According to my P38 book, there were 207 P38's delivered in 1941 and 1478 in 1942. Considering that the P38 was delayed by 6 - 12 months in development from one reason or another, the scenario where the P38 begins mass production in early 1941 is quite historically possible.

Since the P38 would be available in sufficient numbers by Dec 1941/Jan 1942, then it would be deployed to New Guinea well before the Guadalcanal invasion and would have an immediate impact on IJN air operations. Deployment on Guadalcanal once it was in allied hands would further give the Japanese major headaches and the loss of air supremacy.

[tomo pauk]

Hi, syscom3,

Any info about "the [Hellcat's] design was dictated by the results of actual combat with the Zero"? Thanks.

P-38 would've made a difference surely,esp. when we see the time wasted between the 1st flight and the serial production. Whomever is to blame for that.

[gjs238]

Originally Posted by tomo pauk

Hi, syscom3,

Any info about "the [Hellcat's] design was dictated by the results of actual combat with the Zero"? Thanks.

P-38 would've made a difference surely,esp. when we see the time wasted between the 1st flight and the serial production. Whomever is to blame for that.

F6F Hellcat: Design was started well before Pearl Harbor, but later experience with Japanese influenced the development.

P-38 Lightning: There is no one to "blame." It's more or less a matter of development. One could say the aircraft was "ahead of its time" and encountered phenomena that took more time to work through than anticipated.

P-51 by contrast went from drawing board to shooting down aircraft more quickly and cost-effectively than most would have anticipated.

[mlsco]

Originally Posted by syscom3

I dont think we can include the Hellcat in this scenario, since the design was dictated by the results of actual combat with the Zero.

According to my P38 book, there were 207 P38's delivered in 1941 and 1478 in 1942. Considering that the P38 was delayed by 6 - 12 months in development from one reason or another, the scenario where the P38 begins mass production in early 1941 is quite historically possible.

Since the P38 would be available in sufficient numbers by Dec 1941/Jan 1942, then it would be deployed to New Guinea well before the Guadalcanal invasion and would have an immediate impact on IJN air operations. Deployment on Guadalcanal once it was in allied hands would further give the Japanese major headaches and the loss of air supremacy.

Fair comment. But could I come back and argue that enough had been seen of the Zero in China to know that a bigger engine (R2800 vs R2600) to improve speed and climb was already a pretty clear choice? The other major features for survivability (lots of armor plate, self sealing tanks) were already part of the F4F. We could argue about range and number of machine guns, but it was my impression too that the basic design was well underway by mid-1941.

The major issue I'd have with trying to move up the F6F is that it needs an accessory to make it as hugely dominant as later in the war: Essex class carriers and lots of them.